I demand a recount!

quote:

Originally posted by tribu Discuss, if desired...

The press has completely dropped the ball on covering the Democrats' attempts (and successes) to get Nader off of the ballot. All you ever hear from the Democrats is crap about disenfranchisement of voters, but now they're doing it to millions of Nader supporters. Where's Jesse Jackson on this? Oh yeah, he just joined the Kerry campaign.

Instead of trying to get Perot off of the ballot, the Republicans made legitimate attacks on him during the course of the election. But it seems that the Democrats are so unsure about their candidate's ability that they have to try and screw with the vote in the courts weeks before election day.

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FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

WTF! could ahave swore there was a post here a second ago?

anyway, i got a pretty good idea why the mainstream press isn't covering this.

i've been watching the network news and have noticed that the FLA Nader ballot fiasco has been getting zero to little play. if anyone has been following that debacle they would surely agree that it's more than news worthy, but, oh well

Republicans have the luxury of keeping the issue at arms lenth and letting the Democrats run this into the ground. you have to know though, that this will be a huge topic after the election. thats AFTER the election folks. not before...and that sucks.

here is a couple more peculiar hits in addition to the Ohio mess.

quote:

“Wisconsin Democrats have hit a new low. The infamous ‘smokes for votes’ incident in Milwaukee during the 2000 election is child’s play compared to the shameful actions the Democrats are now conducting in Wisconsin with little more than a month to go before election day.

http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=24473

quote:

The Nader campaign had twice attempted to obtain ballot status for 2004 through holding a convention with 1,000 electors (registered voters) in one meeting willing to sign a petition. Both times the Democratic Party in Oregon sabotaged the effort by packing the hall with its supporters, who then refused to sign. In the second effort the Nader campaign failed by 50 signatures.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/s.../nadr-s29.shtml

sounds to me like another example of the infamous double standards routine.

michigan:

http://www.freep.com/news/politics/...6e_20040826.htm

quote:

Republicans sue to get Nader on ballot The Board of State Canvassers deadlocked Monday on whether to accept nearly 50,000 signatures -- 45,000 gathered by Republicans -- that would qualify Nader for a spot on the ballot as an independent. Two Republicans voted to certify the signatures and two Democrats objected. The lawsuit was filed by Nick DeLeeuw, a Michigan Republican Party field director, and three other Republicans who signed the petition.

oregon:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oreg...20027144960.xml

quote:

Conservatives ready to help Nader may continue to get help from Bush supporters in this state. Citizens for a Sound Economy, a conservative group with funding from several business figures, urged members to attend the Nader convention last month and is ready to help again. "We actually talked about launching this (petition drive) ourselves," said Russ Walker, the Oregon director of the group. "We are going to do something. Probably, at a minimum, we'd ask members to circulate the petition and help get Nader on the ballot."

arkansas:

http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive...ews/276582.html

quote:

Republicans among Nader petition signees The Arkansas petitions were peppered with the names of well-known Republicans, including Martha McCaskill of Little Rock, chairwoman of the Pulaski County Republican Party; state Rep. Michael Lamoureaux of Russellville; and five employees of the Republican Party of Arkansas coordinated campaign - Pasha Moore of Little Rock, Kerry Baldwin of Cabot, Jon Gilmore of Roland, Adriel Domenech of Little Rock, and Allison Johnson of Little Rock.

new hampshire:

http://www.fosters.com/august_2004/...ws/co_0811b.asp

quote:

N.H. Democrats cry foul over Nader petition drive Temporary workers, hired by a state GOP consulting firm, gathered signatures for Nader from Republicans at Doug and Stella Scamman’s farm in Stratham on Friday as 3,000 party faithful attended a picnic with President George W. Bush

http://www.petitiononline.com/nadergop/petition.html

new jersey:

http://www.thnt.com/thnt/story/0,21282,1008248,00.html

quote:

-- gathered signatures at public places around the state, including 52 signed outside a recent Republican Party fund-raising event in Edison.

yeah, i know this last one will be the subject of any rebuttals, i just felt like posting it nonetheless

and yeah, we could talk about florida's acceptance of the rebirth of perot's party to allow nader on the ballot without actually collecting petition signitures. The benifits of benifiting the powers that be, i suppose.

i think that we need to take q5echo's advice and keep this issue at arms length. posting democrat's efforts to keep nader off may soon become a minority to posted republican efforts to put nader on.

I would say democrat efforts to keep Nader off the ballot leaves a fouler taste in the air than republican efforts to put him on the ballot. Who cares if Nader is on the ballot ... if the only way democrats can build support for their party is to limit all other choices except for republican and democrat on election day than I would seriously consider voting Republican if I were more on the fence. If democrats want to capture Nader's votes than show some party leadership that appeals to that constituency.

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Retro ...

and what about these accusations in Ohio. it doesn't sound like anyone's grasping at staws.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/20.../loc_nader.html

quote:

Six testify to Nader petition fraud COLUMBUS - Six people testified Tuesday - with more to come today - laying out a case of widespread fraud in the collection of Ohio petitions for presidential candidate Ralph Nader. A 32-year-old Cincinnati resident was among those who said they falsely signed petitions stating they had gathered the names Nader needs to qualify for the ballot in November. "I was wrong in that. I shouldn't have done that," Gregory Reese Jr. told a hearing officer for the Ohio secretary of state's office. The Ohio Democratic Party is backing a challenge to Nader's efforts to get on Ohio's ballot, where the party is concerned he could take away votes from Sen. John Kerry. In 2000, Nader got nearly 118,000 votes in Ohio, about 2.5 percent, while President Bush beat Al Gore by 3.5 percent. Nader, an independent candidate, needs 5,000 valid signatures to qualify for the ballot. County boards of election have certified 6,464. He has qualified for the ballot in Kentucky. But a team of attorneys fighting the petitions is challenging more than 3,000 of those signatures on the basis that they were collected fraudulently by those paid to come in from outside Ohio. Columbus attorney Donald McTigue said that, in his more than 20 years in the election-law business, "I have never seen a fraud so pervasive in this state." Witnesses from Dayton, Kettering and Cincinnati all testified Tuesday that they falsely signed petitions claiming to have collected and witnessed signatures. Some said their signatures were forged. An entire family from Dayton said Tuesday they had never heard of Ralph Nader, even though they signed as witnesses to signatures on nearly 100 petitions. Others from Cincinnati, Cleveland and Lorain are expected to tell similar stories of fraud today. The hearing officer, assistant state elections counsel Gretchen Quinn, will recommend to Secretary of State Ken Blackwell how many, if any, signatures should be invalidated. The evidence of fraud was so clear that attorneys representing Nader on Tuesday were agreeing to toss out more than 400 signatures. "We are not here to defend people who are not going to follow procedure," said Daniel Hilson, a Columbus-area attorney hired by the Nader campaign, adding he was surprised by some of Tuesday's testimony. "We're not necessarily here to win at all costs." Reese said he was part of a team working to collect Nader signatures in Hamilton County. The team would meet at a Days Inn in Clermont County, where they would get paid for the signatures collected. Reese said he made about $500. Reese said he signed off as the official circulator of 10 to 15 petitions at the request of the team's leader, a woman from California reportedly paid by Florida-based JSM Inc. to come to Ohio and get Nader on the ballot. The Nader campaign hired JSM to collect signatures in a handful of states. Reese said he collected some of his own signatures. But others were gathered by paid collectors who lived outside the state, which is illegal under Ohio law. So to make them appear legal, he was asked to sign off as a witness to the signatures, he said. Clubok argued that all petitions signed by Reese - regardless of whether he collected them properly or not - should be tossed out. "The fraud is so pervasive that you can't separate the fraudulent petitions from the non-fraudulent ones," Clubok said. After the hearing, Reese said he was not the only person in the Cincinnati group asked to falsely sign-off on petitions. The family of Jill Lane, 45, of Dayton told a similar story. She said her cousin, Michael Jones, who lives in California, was paid to come to Ohio and collect signatures for Nader. But he needed her and three family members to sign off as witnesses for the petitions to appear legal. She and the others, including her fiancee and daughter, testified they were told the petitions were for the gay-marriage amendment. Lane said she signed off on a number of petitions, but on several others, she said her name was forged. "He said it was OK," Lane said, talking about her cousin, who paid her $20. Her cousin's colleague paid her another $20 to sign petitions he had collected. Michael Bonham of Centerville testified he was working at a health club about six weeks ago when a couple from Los Angeles came in and offered him $25 to sign off as witnessing signatures on five petitions. His name was later forged on several more petitions, according to testimony. Although no strict deadlines have been set, Blackwell is expected to make a decision by Sept. 28, the first day of absentee balloting. James Lee, spokesman for the office, said that, although ballots are already being printed, if Nader doesn't qualify for the ballot, efforts will be made to remove his name.

when the nader campaign attorney is surprised by some of the testimony, one could assume that there could be something more to the charges other than basic democratic party ballot manipulation.

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag and what about these accusations in Ohio. it doesn't sound like anyone's grasping at staws. http://www.enquirer.com/editions/20.../loc_nader.html when the nader campaign attorney is surprised by some of the testimony, one could assume that there could be something more to the charges other than basic democratic party ballot manipulation.

Is it possible the Democrats both signed and witnessed the petitions for Nader's candidacy knowing that their party would challenge it? Then upon receiving a inquiry, they denied any knowledge of the petition? See:

quote:

An entire family from Dayton said Tuesday they had never heard of Ralph Nader, even though they signed as witnesses to signatures on nearly 100 petitions.

This seems somewhat unlikely to me. Ralph Nader has been making a name for himself in the public eye for decades, the news media consistantly talks about him taking votes away from Kerry, yet this family has never heard of him? Given the Democrats conduct in other states, I wouldnt be suprise if they maniuplated things here in Ohio as well, though I also submit to the idea that not every signature on the petition was valid.

As occrider said, the Democratic efforts to keep Nader off the balot in several states are driving Nader supporters to choose between Bush and Badnarik. All questions of his policies aside, Kerry's campaign seems more worried about losing votes rather than convincing peoplee to vote for them. Perhaps if Kerry adapted a bit more of a progressive policy, or any policy at all, he could obtain the necessary votes to beat Bush. Though I dont really approve of the way thing have been run over the last 4 years, Bush's stifling of Democracy has been no less than Kerry and the Democratic party's efforts at this point in the campaign. The chance that I will vote for Kerry is extremely low now, unless he woos me in the debates, which probably will not happen, given the history of Presidential debates that I have seen...

i don't feel that you should make a case regarding the average american's political knowledge. the family in question could just as easily been religious kooks thinking they were doing their duty to god. and yes, kerry should be working on making a name for himself instead of worrying about losing votes. As far as we know, he could be in bed with american oil, the saudis and be a huge proponent to diminishing civil liberties. IMO, if we're going to be facing these same issues for the next 4 years, i'd rather see a different face on the front page.

Maybe on paper a multi party system is ideal, and perhaps in a perfect world it would be ideal. But shouldn't the ultimate goal of running for president be being elected to president? If someone wants to make a real change in american politics, they should establish voter lobbies with a large following. examples being the christian coalition and the nra. all nader's doing right now is disenfranchising his followers beliefs until the next goaround. why couldn't he start a progressive voters union and lobby his goals to the democrats in exchange for votes? he's trying to cure his headache by shooting himself in the head.

It's great that nader's fighting the good fight, but what chance does he really have in changing the system given his current strategy? his biggest loss in ohio is that he won't get 2.5-3% of the vote. how can the democrats sleep at night

Just because Nader's name is on the ballot doesn't mean anyone has to vote for him. Hell, you can write him in on your own ballot if you really want to vote for him. It's a pretty dumb if you think about it.

My initial response to this whole Nader fiasco was, unsurprisingly, anger. The partisan liberal in me was pretty pissed off at Nader even running, and it worsened as we learned how much the Republicans are helping him on the ballot. I made the case a while back that it speaks of weakness that the Republicans are using Nader to support their candidate, but Occ had correctly fired back about the same case could be made about the Dem. efforts for getting him OFF the ballot.

The truth to me is, both sides are guilty and wreak of political sleaziness, but their sleaziness does not match that of Nader himself. I cannot understand how this douchebag feels it justifiable to accept Republican money and campaign assistance, when practically every issue he stands for is in direct contrast to the Right. That wreaks of pure dishonesty and incredibly low integrity, lower than what I've witnessed from the other 2 parties.

Regardless, if he wants on the ballott, I feel that he should be allowed to be on the ballot, provided he abides by the rules. So far, he's run very short on abiding by each states rules, and has really shown his utter sleaziness by accepting and passing on false signatures. I really don't know what happened to Nader. He really did stand for something worthwhile.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by Shakka Just because Nader's name is on the ballot doesn't mean anyone has to vote for him. Hell, you can write him in on your own ballot if you really want to vote for him. It's a pretty dumb if you think about it.

exactly