The bad thing is, Maskhadov was a moderate who was open for discussions with Moscow, but Basayev, another very powerful commander, is not open for peace talks or to negotiate.

So now, without Miaskhadov, the Russians have noone to talk to about bringing in the peace. The best thing they could do now is to assassinate Basayev and force Chechens rebels to a discussion table. After all, it is the Russians who have the advantage in this war, either way they wont bend easy this time.

The Chechen rebel brutality, as illustrated in Beslan siege and Moscow theatre hostage-takings, only brought ignorance and shadow to the Chechen cause. Their republic is in ruins, over 300,000 people have died there since 1994. It is the worst place to be in the world right now, worst conflict.

Yet there is no end in sight. It is obvious the death of Mr. Maskhadov will only bring fresh attacks by rebels in retaliation, led by Shamil Basayev. What else can be seen of his death?

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Mar-09-2005 at 01:13

Maskhadov, despite not being a very benevolent leader was no Basayev. He completely detested what Basayev may or may not have done (the verdict is still out in the Duma I believe) in Beslan.

I don't believe Maskhadov was a terrorist. He was merely a leader of a perceived oppressed people (and there are many justifications for this belief... i.e. the mass exile of Chechens to Kazakhstan in the Soviet years). He led a struggle against a Russian hegemon that had for 400 years tried to ascertain complete control over his people. Its a wonder he was willing to work with Moscow at all... even though the incursion into Dagestan by Basayev's people kind of ruined that as well, since it brought the full weight of the Russian military back down upon them.

I think the Russians have a tendency to be very underhanded about things. They killed the original Chechen president by luring him into an open field to receive a satellite call from Moscow... only to bomb him. And I mean, the inferences about their involvement in the 1999 apartment bombings (used as a pretext for the war no less), their botched rescues of both the hospital taken by Basayev and the infamous theater disaster in Moscow, as well as Beslan... which the Duma believes the Russian government was at least somewhat involved with... Are the Chechens doing more damage or are the Russians?

I think this is a sad compromise for their failure to locate Basayev, the real target, and I think it will destabilize the region even further terribly. Maskhadov was the only semblance of control in Chechnya. Now it will devolve into ruthless struggles between rival clans and the violence will only escalate.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Maskhadov, despite not being a very benevolent leader was no Basayev. He completely detested what Basayev may or may not have done (the verdict is still out in the Duma I believe) in Beslan. I don't believe Maskhadov was a terrorist. He was merely a leader of a perceived oppressed people (and there are many justifications for this belief... i.e. the mass exile of Chechens to Kazakhstan in the Soviet years). He led a struggle against a Russian hegemon that had for 400 years tried to ascertain complete control over his people. Its a wonder he was willing to work with Moscow at all... even though the incursion into Dagestan by Basayev's people kind of ruined that as well, since it brought the full weight of the Russian military back down upon them. I think the Russians have a tendency to be very underhanded about things. They killed the original Chechen president by luring him into an open field to receive a satellite call from Moscow... only to bomb him. And I mean, the inferences about their involvement in the 1999 apartment bombings (used as a pretext for the war no less), their botched rescues of both the hospital taken by Basayev and the infamous theater disaster in Moscow, as well as Beslan... which the Duma believes the Russian government was at least somewhat involved with... Are the Chechens doing more damage or are the Russians? I think this is a sad compromise for their failure to locate Basayev, the real target, and I think it will destabilize the region even further terribly. Maskhadov was the only semblance of control in Chechnya. Now it will devolve into ruthless struggles between rival clans and the violence will only escalate.

Agree with you on most parts. Except for Dzhohar (whatever it is in English) Dudayev, the first president in Chechnya, from what I know I read about him, he got killed when the Russians traced his satellite call and bombed the house he was in at the time, killing him.

Maskhadov was the moderate leader of Chechnya. When he was elected the president of the republic in 1997, he couldn't control the rebel commanders, and crime grew amongst the ruins of the republic as Maskhadov didnt have the money to rebuild the republic and unite his people. Chechens did whatever they wanted, and he had no control over much of the republic, thus the ordinary Chechens became disillusioned with him. Lately, after his condemnation of the Beslan attack by Mr. Basayev, he was quick to condemn the attack - further separating himself from the hardline rebels. He was always open for peace dialogue with Russia - and when he declared a 30-day ceasefire in January of 2005 - which went largely ignored - I think the extremist hardline Wahhabist Chechen rebels have had enough of him. I think they in some way or some how set him up to the Russians. They just became tired of him and didnt want his way of ending the war.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Agree with you on most parts. Except for Dzhohar (whatever it is in English) Dudayev, the first president in Chechnya, from what I know I read about him, he got killed when the Russians traced his satellite call and bombed the house he was in at the time, killing him. Maskhadov was the moderate leader of Chechnya. When he was elected the president of the republic in 1997, he couldn't control the rebel commanders, and crime grew amongst the ruins of the republic as Maskhadov didnt have the money to rebuild the republic and unite his people. Chechens did whatever they wanted, and he had no control over much of the republic, thus the ordinary Chechens became disillusioned with him. Lately, after his condemnation of the Beslan attack by Mr. Basayev, he was quick to condemn the attack - further separating himself from the hardline rebels. He was always open for peace dialogue with Russia - and when he declared a 30-day ceasefire in January of 2005 - which went largely ignored - I think the extremist hardline Wahhabist Chechen rebels have had enough of him. I think they in some way or some how set him up to the Russians. They just became tired of him and didnt want his way of ending the war.

I thought Dudaev was lured into an open field for better reception or something. But yeah, he was on a satphone call when the Russians dropped a bomb in his lap.

As far as the Chechens selling out Maskhadov... who knows, wouldn't surprise me. The whole region is descending into the same tribal warfare that originally screwed the Chechens in the 1800's when Russia first invaded the region. And Basayev believes himself to be the new reincarnation of Imam Shamil, the great unifier of the Chechen tribes from the 1800's... but it doesn't look like he's unifying anything. Quite the opposite actually.

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I read a lot about Caucasus conflicts, so I would like to add some stuff (first of all, I am not pro-Chechen) ...

Yes, I read about that. Imam Shamil was a legendary leader of the Chechen resistance in the mid 1800s when he fought the Russian invaders bravely and fearlessly, inflicting heavy casualties (tens of thousands of Russian troops). Their resistance was so demoralizing to the Russians, and they described them as 'fearless fighters' and often enough attributed their attacks on Russian posts as 'waves of death'. Since Chechen fighters lived and hid high in the mountains, and access to their mountain villages was only possible through a local person who was an expert in the terrain, thus they waged an effective guerilla campaign.

Their resistance was inspired at that time by such famous Russian writers as Tolstoy, who himself been deeply touched by it.

Then, Imam Shamil was killed in a battle and the war pretty much ended sometime afterwards in 1859 - but not completely.

It's fascinating how the Chechens are such spiritual people who have strong aspirations of freedom running in their blood, going on since 1815, the year the Russian Imperial army set in the Caucasus after defeating Napoleon.

Then, of course, they rebelled again in 1919, taking advantage of the Russian Revolution and declared independence which was squashed in 1922. Then in early 1944, when Germans were on Chechen territory, digging deep inside Caucasus, Chechens went over to the German side, but were yet defeated again.

Stalin effectively deported the population en masse to Central Asia in 'death trains' months after throwing Germans back - the workload was given upon the feared Soviet secret police NKVD to administer. The trains were tightly packed with all Chechens - women, children, elderly - men were sometimes shot before getting on the trains, all of this in the middle of winter. Thousands of Chechens died in the trains, but many survivors who were allowed to return to their land in 1956 under Krushchev did so.

Stalin completely redrew borders after the World War II, often mixing people of different religions and ethnicity, forcing them to live together. He thus grew the seeds of war that was to erupt when the Soviet Union collapsed.

You might recall hearing about Nagorny-Karakakh war in late 1980s between ethnic Armenians living deep inside the newly proclaimed Azerbaijan, and the Azerbaijani villages cut off inside the Armenian territory. Unknown number of people died, and many have been separated since.

Then in 1991, there was some violence in North Ossetia between Ingush and Ossetians over land they disputed because of Stalin. That conflict never had a cease fire. Over a thousand people died and disappeared. There's still hostolity between the groups - the peace was never signed. Then there's Southern Ossetia, which wants to be united with North Ossetia to be with Russia, but Georgian troops crushed any thought of that.

Then there was an interesting rebellion in western Georgian region of Abkhazia, which was ethnically Abkhaz, and they wanted to separate, and their small guerilla army managed to successfully defeat and embarass a larger and more superior Georgian army (with the help of weapons from Russia, of course). There's a shaky peace deal signed between the the two, and Russian peacekeepers patrol Abkhazia to date. Oh, by the way, Shamil Basayev was a veteran of that war, fighting alongside the Abkhazians.

Then there is a group of extremists who want to unite the whole North Caucasus, separate from Russia and form an Islamic state. Backed by the Chechen Wahhabist guerillas.

That whole Caucasus region is waiting to erupt into another more brutal war, and right now the only thing stopping that is the firepower and "strength" (not really, but ... ) as well as the brutality of the Russian Army, which has a chance of bringing the peace to the Caucasus, while keeping all the territories as a part of the Russian Federation.

The first Chechen war could have been avoided if

a) Chechen government, led by Dudayev, demanded Russia to make Chechnya an autonomous republic WITHIN the Russian Federation.
b) Russian government, led by idiot Yeltsin, swallow their pride and without using force, but rather intimidation and compromise (after all, Russia supplies them with electricity and economy) to bring a solution to their differences.

Instead, right now Chechnya is the world heavist mined place in the world (tied with Afghanistan). Millions of bombs and 300,000 shadows of mostly innocent victims of the war, such as civilians and untrained Russian soldiers, lie upon the ruins of this forsaken land. There is no question that Chechnya is the world's most horrific place to live, especially if you lived there and managed to survive over the past 10 years. Imagine the children being born since the early 1990s in Chechnya, them going through the wars - whom do they turn out to be? Are they going to be guerilla fighters? Are they going to be working for the Russians? Are they going to join crimilar organization that litter North Caucasus?

One thing for sure, everyone who is living there right now is scarred by the 10 years of senseless death and destruction. Reflecting back on the last 10, make it 11 years - has the war done anything good for either Chechnya or Russia? I dont think either side saw this coming in the fall of 1994. I almost guarantee it.

Hopefully this war will end one day and soon using peacefull methods. Please someone let the conflict to end and let people live a normal life.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Mar-14-2005 at 23:02

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] COLOR]

Like your sig! Smoltz starting on the mound this year!


[[[smoke]]]

best news out of that war in a while

I'm going to do my senior research on ethnic conflict in the Caucasus (I believe), so I've got quite an interest in the region too.

It's a crazy place, filled with 200+ ethnicities, 4 separatist regions (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Chechnya-Ingushetia), and something like 6 alphabets (Latin, Cyrillic, Arabic, Persian, Georgian, and Armenian). The region's history reads like a veritable who's who of imperial hegemons. Persia, Greece (Alexander), Russia, England, Rome, Byzantium, the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Abbasids... all have fought wars on Caucasian soil.

I do disagree, however, with your statement that no one saw the conflict coming in 1994. It's true that after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 that Chechnya declared its independance in the rush on sovereignty that ensued, and was hardly even opposed. The same is true with Tatarstan in central Russia. However, Yeltsin had been making more vigorous overtones towards the Chechens for some time... and after the pipeline carrying Azeri oil from Baku was routed through Groznyy and the Chechens started demanding a toll... the Russians became more agitated at higher levels. The conflict really started as a result of the pipeline. The Chechens were in a position to cut off all oil flow from the Caspian unless the Russians paid a heavy tax on it. The Russians obviously refused, and then invaded under the pretext of controlling a separatist province.

Once Groznyy was more or less bombed into dust and the Russians had received a heavy slap in the face, the Russians retreated, to build a bypass through Dagestan. Before the bypass was finished, however, the Chechens had ingeniously devised a mechanism for tapping the oil pipeline that went through Chechnya, in order to not only keep the oil from reaching Russia, but also in order to sell the oil for money used to buy new weapons for their fight.

Once the bypass was completed and oil no longer flowed through Chechnya, the Chechens began infiltrating Dagestani territory in order to tap the pipeline there. This eventually led to Putin's redeclaration of war in 1999 under the pretext of Chechen invasions of other Russian territories.

Post 9/11, Putin has been able to paint a picture for the US of Al Qaeda's involvement in the Chechen conflict, which is improbable at best, just because Al Qaeda is thought of as being very devout, when in reality post-Soviet Muslims in Azerbaijan and Chechnya probably don't even know in what direction Mecca lies. But thusfar Bush seems to be buying Putin's claims, and the US maintains silence on the issues of Chechen claims to independence as well as citations of military crimes commited by the Russians.

Also, in addition to fighting in Abkhazia, Basayev also got his hands dirty in the Karabakh war, fighting for Azerbaijan against the Armenians.

Interestingly enough though, the Abkhaz are now terrified of Basayev and the Chechens, because traditionally they have a history of being raided by Chechen mountain-men, and are also now being aided heavily by the Russians (who are just hoping to be a continual thorn in Georgia's side until Georgia rejoins the Russian Federation).



All in all I think Maskhadov's assassination is unfortunate. In a conflict riven as it is with violence and seedy tactics (Russia's military crimes as well as Russian complicity in several terrorist attacks blamed on Chechens i.e. Beslan... as well as Basayev's radical and blatantly terroristic tactics of fear and subversion), peace seems so unlikely, and it seems sometimes that Maskhadov was the only Chechen really pursuing it.

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nice post!

yeah the Balkans and Caucasus are easily ignored by most, but truly do represent much of the world post-Soviet/US relations. the fall of the CCCP meant more for most of the world than we really acknowledge. Chechnyan conflict isnt just a microcosm of Western Terrorism, or Russian rebuilding, but both.

In some ways, the conflict can be related as a muse for Putin's continual power. when ensconced in a 'national crisis' its easier to stay in power, as many Americans have learned|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov The region's history reads like a veritable who's who of imperial hegemons. Persia, Greece (Alexander), Russia, England, Rome, Byzantium, the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Abbasids... all have fought wars on Caucasian soil.

Greeks indeed attempted to rule Chechens when they established their trade ports on the Black Sea, but Chechens resistance such advances. And Alexander The Great did not invade the region, nor did his father .

quote:

I do disagree, however, with your statement that no one saw the conflict coming in 1994.

True, a lot of people in the region at that time sensed a war coming, but what I meant to say was - they did NOT, and I repeat, THEY DID NOT SEE THE WAR TO TURN OUT TO BE THIS DAMAGING, both to the Chechens and the Russians themselves.

quote:

It's true that after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 that Chechnya declared its independance in the rush on sovereignty that ensued, and was hardly even opposed. The same is true with Tatarstan in central Russia.

I did not know that (about Tatarstan). Do you know where I can read about that? What is the status of the republic now? Can you fill me in with some info on this, please ...

Interesting information about the oil, though I knew most of it, sadly that it was all about oil. I personally thought 5 years ago and still think the same way today that the Chechen conflict exploded in 1994 mainly because Yeltsyn wanted to keep Chechnya under Russian rule with a show of force, and to show the other breakaway republics an example. We all know the domino effect ...

quote:

Also, in addition to fighting in Abkhazia, Basayev also got his hands dirty in the Karabakh war, fighting for Azerbaijan against the Armenians.

I didnt know about this either. I guess Basayev is not going to be an easy man to kill.

quote:

Interestingly enough though, the Abkhaz are now terrified of Basayev and the Chechens, because traditionally they have a history of being raided by Chechen mountain-men, and are also now being aided heavily by the Russians (who are just hoping to be a continual thorn in Georgia's side until Georgia rejoins the Russian Federation).

Yes it makes sense. After all, now that Georgia's government is pro-western, it is going to make it even more difficult for the Russians to realize this dream ... Russians aided Abkhazians with weapons to fight the Georgian army, and they surely did use them well, and humiliated Georgian army.

Whats the status of Abkhazia nowadays? Is it still a part of Georgia? I dont think they are recognized as an independent country yet ...

Well, Russians have committed many war crimes in Chechnya, but I cannot agree that they were the ones who committed a war crime in Beslan. Both Chechen guerillas and Russians have done lots of eye for an eye wat crimes, against soldiers/fighters, civilian population (yes, guerillas did execute at least several thousand Chechen civilians - suspecting them of collaboration with the Russians) and foreigners. I believe the Russians first lit the fire when they sometimes executed scores of innocent civilians in areas where they sustained heavy resistance and/or heavy casualties. Sometimes they would shell villages into submission or to force the villages to give the Russian troops food, money, or shelter. And the organized crime is reeping the most benefit from the conflict. People get killed in Chechnya, they bodies get thrown in dumpsters - people see them but dont react at all - death is a way of survival for some and good business for others in Chechnya.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

I believe Abkhazia's status hasn't changed since 1994, when the conflict more or less ended. There is a large DMZ between Georgian troops and the Abkhaz, and a lot of internally displaced people (mostly ethnic Georgians fleeing Abkhazia) still have no place to settle. The United Nations has a distinct mission to Georgia to try and maintain peace along the DMZ, though skirmishes still take place from time to time.

Abkhazia has a fully functional government, replete with foreign ministry, though it isn't recognized by anyone. The main task in front of the government is infrastructural, and largely pertains to building schools and other necessary parts of Abkhazian society. Some people believe the Abkhaz government may be more capable of doing that than the Georgian government.

As far as Tatarstan... this seems to be a fairly comprehensive site for your basic information. I'm not sure how much historical information is on there... you may have to do more searching for that.
-->Link<--

Oh, and Basayev + Azerbaijan more or less lost the war with Armenia. So he's not completely invincible.

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