quote:

Originally posted by denny_shibby Okay liberals lets say you guys get your way and you set up a huge high percentage income tax on the wealthy classes, okay. What stops all the wealthy from just saying to hell with this shit, we're leaving, or we are simply just not going to work anymore? If there are no wealthy there to pay the taxes than you have nobody to fund your damn bs programs.

Ooo, I love unrealistic hypotheticals! So the wealthy stop working, huh? Why would they do that?

And our "damn bs programs" just so happen to be YOUR damn bs programs, unless you have some secret means to pay for the highways, our elderly's Medicare, our military, our libraries, and other gov't programs you cute little Conservatives also love to use.

And if you don't mind, could you please send me your Social Security check in the mail every month when you retire? Seems to me that you really don't want it, so I'm sure you're okay if I use it. Fair enough, champ?

quote:

You liberals come across a terrorist that you know has layed a nuclear weapon in a major city in your country. This nuclear weapon is on a timer and this terrorist is the only one that knows how to disarm it. How do you get that information from him?

By tickling his feet and rubbing his weenie?

Interesting scenario, really - what a pity that despite all the torturing we have done, we haven't found shit about bin Laden, nor have we been able to quell the insurgents in Iraq. And I guess we just have to dismiss all those darn studies that clearly demonstrate that torture methodology to extract information most often leads to inaccurate and unverifiable info.

But I know that's not what you darn Bush/Gonzales apologists wanna hear, so just ignore everything I just said, not that this is anything knew for folks like yourself.

But to answer your question, I would likely support whatever means is necessary to get that info. Unfortunately torture has never seemed to work in order to get the right info.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by denny_shibby Okay liberals lets say you guys get your way and you set up a huge high percentage income tax on the wealthy classes, okay. What stops all the wealthy from just saying to hell with this shit, we're leaving, or we are simply just not going to work anymore? If there are no wealthy there to pay the taxes than you have nobody to fund your damn bs programs.

Why on Earth would they stop working?! You pay tax over the level that tax is set at. So if you say, tax £20,000 at 20%, and £40,000 at 40%, you would only pay 40% on anything over 40% (ie if you earn £45,000 you would pay 40% on only £5,000) Therefore, no wealthy people would stop work as they would still be filthy rich so there.

But as you will probably get upset if I dont answer you I will!

What would happen is that I will get a very highly paid job, as will lots of other people who before would not have had that oppertunity!

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You liberals come across a terrorist that you know has layed a nuclear weapon in a major city in your country. This nuclear weapon is on a timer and this terrorist is the only one that knows how to disarm it. How do you get that information from him?

What MisterOpus1 said...

LOL I was thinking of moving to america just because I'll probebly be earning alot and can't be arsed paying for other people actually.

Try Norway one of my flatmates was telling me about the tax rates there and holy shit you wouldn't belive it. Though if you lose your job you still get paid the same (or atleast you did until recently).

What I'm saying is I dunno where they'd go where they would be taxed less.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by Dervish LOL I was thinking of moving to america just because I'll probebly be earning alot and can't be arsed paying for other people actually. Try Norway one of my flatmates was telling me about the tax rates there and holy shit you wouldn't belive it. Though if you lose your job you still get paid the same (or atleast you did until recently). What I'm saying is I dunno where they'd go where they would be taxed less.

Thats why the standard of living is so much better on the continent than it is in the UK. We follow the US economic model and pay a lot less income tax than in Europe, and the effect? We are the fucking shit hole of Europe, apart from Italy obviously.

Opus you didn't even fucking answer the first question. You only said that they wouldn't stop working, so many of you guys want super high percentage taxes on the wealthy, right? For an example of taxing the guys to oblivion, lets say you guys somehow get a tax through that everybody making over 200 grand a year gets taxed at 70 percent while everybody below 200 grand gets taxed at 45 percent. What happens if all the wealthy people leave or stop working. Believe me there are plenty of places they can go. The U.S. would atleast only be 40 or so percent. Cayman Islands have no tax, you can find plenty of countries in latin america with low or no income tax. Luxembourg I think has super low income tax(correct me if I'm wrong)could be Lichten. Hong Kong has 15 percent. And Russia has I think either 15 or 20 percent(thats the case but still to much red tape in Russia). Tickling feet and rubbing his weenie, huh. In liberal world would you would be burned at the stake. We don't torture. We have perfected humane ways of not doing that. If you don't talk we provide the bare minimum of food maintain nutrition, you do talk you eat 3 big meals a day. You don't talk you will probably have to live in low or hot temperature cell, nothing even close to dangerous at all but is discomforting(basically either goosebumps or sweating their ass off). We can't have women sweet talk them because that is called sexual coercion. Just think of it, we are so evil of people we even draped an Israeli flag around one detainee, wow the horror.

Don't call these extreme hypotheticals either. Both events are highly plausible and you well know that.

Who would hire you to work if there are no wealthy people owning Microsoft, McDs, GM, or Sony? No high paying jobs to get.

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Originally posted by denny_shibby Opus you didn't even fucking answer the first question. You only said that they wouldn't stop working, so many of you guys want super high percentage taxes on the wealthy, right? For an example of taxing the guys to oblivion, lets say you guys somehow get a tax through that everybody making over 200 grand a year gets taxed at 70 percent while everybody below 200 grand gets taxed at 45 percent. What happens if all the wealthy people leave or stop working. Believe me there are plenty of places they can go. The U.S. would atleast only be 40 or so percent. Cayman Islands have no tax, you can find plenty of countries in latin america with low or no income tax. Luxembourg I think has super low income tax(correct me if I'm wrong)could be Lichten. Hong Kong has 15 percent. And Russia has I think either 15 or 20 percent(thats the case but still to much red tape in Russia). Tickling feet and rubbing his weenie, huh. In liberal world would you would be burned at the stake. We don't torture. We have perfected humane ways of not doing that. If you don't talk we provide the bare minimum of food maintain nutrition, you do talk you eat 3 big meals a day. You don't talk you will probably have to live in low or hot temperature cell, nothing even close to dangerous at all but is discomforting(basically either goosebumps or sweating their ass off). We can't have women sweet talk them because that is called sexual coercion. Just think of it, we are so evil of people we even draped an Israeli flag around one detainee, wow the horror. Don't call these extreme hypotheticals either. Both events are highly plausible and you well know that. Who would hire you to work if there are no wealthy people owning Microsoft, McDs, GM, or Sony? No high paying jobs to get.

what if all the workers stopped working, then the rich people wouldnt make any money? or what if all the workers stopped buying the rich's products, then they couldnt use that either... etc, only because you are rich doesnt mean that you are independent, its all about working together...

First of all that shit happens all the time its called a strike. To answer you question what if the workers stopped working. Well the if would be they would starve first. The rich would move to a country that did have workers working or would hold out until the workers realised they needed to work to survive.

Lets face it, higher tax brackets provide a disincentive for those in that bracket to work less... Not only that, it provides disincentive for those below the highest bracket to not work any harder. That's the reality of progressive tax systems. But, the question go begging... who is the most capable of paying tax?? The answer would have to be the rich, simply because the marginal benefit of money decreases as you earn more (ie. earning you first dollar is more valuable to you than earning your 100,000th dollar).

If you want to get technical on the issue lets note that flat-tax systems are much less distortive to the market than progressive taxes. ie. you can raise the same amount of revenue under a flat-tax system as you did a progressive system, without distorting the market as much. Now this is all and well in economic theory, but remember that we live in a democracy and the people rarely know what's best for them when it comes to economics.

The US income tax system is much more worker friendly than that of Australia. From what i remember (correct me if i'm wrong) the top tax bracket in the US is at $300k and is taxed at about 30%. In Australia we get taxed 47% after $80k (it was $57k last year if i remember, but they lifted it this year). This, by no means, suggests that Australian workers will stop working. Australians, in fact, are amongst the hardest workers in the world (if you go by hours worked per week).

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A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

I have deep respect for Australians, Dupz. Yes you guys have your government problems, but just the same as I find the Irish people some of the most friendly, everything I have heard, gathered, and watched regarding the Australian people is always of great esteem. Its good news to hear that you guys raised the ceiling on your progressive tax system. Based on what I have heard I also think that Australia will probably be one of the first countries to toss aside much of the somewhat socialistic practices and move farther and farther towards the market.

p.s. thanx for the help in Iraq.

Ok lets think about this:

1) You stop taxing rich at a higher rate.

2) = less tax income

3) so you tax the lower income brackets to get the money back

4) they need to be paid more

5) everything costs more (note including exports.....) because of higher tax rates (and hence higher pay) for low level workers and possibly business

6) inability to compete on a international market, less foreign investment (as everything labour costs more)

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

You don't need to tax the lower incomes to get the money back though. The economy will grow faster. More money in the private sector means that less of each dollar gets funneled to the government after every transaction. So what happens is that after each transaction the one receiving the money for the good has more money to go spend on what he wants this spreads to the rest of the economy. Because of less money being taken out of every dollar going to go to the federal government, more transactions occur. More AFTER TAX INCOME means that more people are buying more tvs, etc. Every time this happens everybody's standards of livings rise. Higher standards of living = more income to tax only difference at a lower level. To demonstrate taxing one person making 50 grand at 50 percent = 25 grand to government. After the compounding of grouth over maybe 15 years after tax cuts implemented that same person adjusted as same dollars as previous example would be 100 grand at 25 percent = same amount of money to the government. After the number of years that the revenue going to the government become = then it was actually beneficial to government in gross revenue for those tax cuts to be in place because they receive more there after each year in that lower tax then if the 50 percent was kept for the years all those years. Hopefully you can understand this, I probably could have put it a little easier.

You see what you have just stumbled upon is one great truth about taxation. It affects everybody. No matter what sector of the economy you tax rich, poor, whatever, everybody feels it. You tax the rich well everybody's wages go down and prices go up because they will figure that as another cost they have to endure. If you tax the middle class or poor or whatever then, wages have to be raised yes which is beneficial there, but then they can't compete with ultra low wages in the other countries. The thing is though if you had to choose a low wealthy tax vs. a low middle class/poor tax the low wealthy tax is more beneficial to the society as a whole because of what we know regarding the heirarchy of spending--Direct creation of business and employment, then investment, then consumer spending and saving.