I've done a search, and cant really find anything to answer my question, and perhaps im not asking the right question to begin with.

But I'm having trouble with Hardware synths as apposed to VST's which i've been using for a while now..

The hardware although sounding much better, doesn't seem to sit right in the mix, kinda behind the bass and percussion, and doesn't stand out..

Should I be looking at EQ? laying off the reverb? can anyone point me in the right direction?

Yeah Reverb could hide sounds... Don't use it too much.

And you need obvisously an EQ. The EQ is there for that, so use it. You can use it to remove some frequencies of a sound to let this frequency range to another sound (for ex. un lead doesn't need bass frequencies from 20Hz) or to "exaggerate" a sound to bring it to the front (for ex. adding some 4-5kHz frequencies on a lead).

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there are some patches that dont fit into a mix...eq,filter,reverb and some tweeking solve that.

how about a chorus or sound imager aka Stereo enhancer...
they'r usefull to make ur sound wide and bring to the front

especially on vocals

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Bringing a sound forward in a mix is mostly a combination of using compression and reverb. The use of reverb should be straight forward enough, but use compression to tame the dynamic peaks on a sound in order to draw it forward. Compressing a sound will make it louder, and thus appear closer to the front of the mix.

And, yes, you could use a little EQ as well, primarily by bringing out the 'presence' frequencies in the ~4 kHz to ~6 kHz range.

Really though, I'd look into compressing the sound (depending on what the sound is, but most probably using high level compression, in that you will want to compress the high peaks to create a 'harder' sound), and laying off the reverb if possible.

@Perry: I would consider "wide" and "forward" to be two completely different terms.

The key is to make the sound dry and loud.

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Last edited by Atlantis-AR on Jul-07-2005 at 05:09

the trick is to use all of the fx together and get the best resault . compression, paning, eq & filters. but EQ is your best friend.. and i cant see how a hardware synth is THAT different from a vst. it depends on the patch.. use the parametric eq to cut everything below 50-100 and lower abit the 100- 300 part (for a lead synth that is). and ofcourse experiment with the settings.

I really don't understand how people are refering to EQ when positioning a sound with regards to the z-axis (back to front). It's compression that's your best friend, trust me. No need to experiment - that's what you do when you don't know what you're doing. OK, so this will take a few years, but learn and understand how to equalise and compress and eventually it'll come to you naturally, without the need to tweak settings randomly.

Because our ears are most sensitive in the ~4 kHz to ~6 kHz range, boosting a sound here will give it more 'presence', because it will appear to stand out as louder when played back at an average volume.

However, EQ alone will not simply bring a sound forward in a mix. OK, so we've established that it's a combination of effects, but using a highpass filter to remove the bass frequencies and sucking out the lower mids with a peaking EQ (this one is very instrument specific, by the way, so watch out) won't do the sample justice at all with respect to the z-axis, although I do agree that boosting some 'presence' frequencies helps, as does rolling off the bass-end if it isn't important to the sound in question.

Just try some compression to start out with. That's why heavily compressed drums are always loudest and at the front of the mix, and airy, distant pads are left uncompressed to make them sound further away.

Also, one final comment on dj jasonF's comment of "using all the effects together": Often, you'll find that less is in fact more, and, as I said previously, a dry sound will in most cases appear louder and at the front of the mix. Of course, compression is an exception here, but don't cloud your sound in effects, including reverb, widening, delays, EQ, panning...they all aren't specific to bringing a sound closer to the front of a mix.

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Last edited by Atlantis-AR on Jul-07-2005 at 05:09

I don't see how compression has anything to do with the "distance" of a sound. Compression by definition is supposed to be an "invisible" effect - it flattens dynamics but doesn't affect localization. The only instance in which I can see this making any difference is when the sample already has a lot of reverb and the compression is being used to flatten some of it out.

"Dry" is definitely correct, though. Reverb is one of the best ways to move a sound back. Use the predelay - higher predelay gets perceived as further back (think about what reverb actually is, it makes perfect sense). Then when you need to bring instruments "forward", give them less reverb and less predelay, or possibly no reverb at all. That's why kicks and basslines always sound close to the front - not because of compression, but because they typically have no reverb.

Stereo imaging uses a similar concept to position sounds from left to right. Panning doesn't tell the whole story - even if a sound is coming from directly on your left, you will still hear it in your right ear, just later than the left ear. Sound localization is all about timing. You might even play with the MIDI timing of the instrument (but use multiples of the tempo for delays - a 64th note is usually good).

Most importantly though, think more along the lines of moving the other sounds to the back than bringing the particular synth you want to the front.

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quote:

The only instance in which I can see this making any difference is when the sample already has a lot of reverb and the compression is being used to flatten some of it out.

Can this not be a valuable argument to support the fact the compression draws a sound closer then?

Well OK, have you ever worked with, or heard a drum (snare, clap etc.) track with a fast decay that you've placed in a mix, only to find it just doesn't cut through? Turn the volume up, and you end up with clipping, or the sound taking over the mix; turn the volume down again, and it gets lost. You can never find a good balance between the two, and you just can't seem to give it focus, the only solution to this being compression. You can draw instruments closer, making them stand out more as they have more volume overall.

quote:

Panning doesn't tell the whole story - even if a sound is coming from directly on your left, you will still hear it in your right ear, just later than the left ear.

Yes, which is why I use a stereo balance control to pan stereo instruments in a mix to preserve more of the stereo width, but, that's a whole different topic.

quote:

You might even play with the MIDI timing of the instrument (but use multiples of the tempo for delays - a 64th note is usually good).

So, you're suggesting using delays to localise the sound then? imo that would again only cloud the sound in effects, taking the focus away from it.

quote:

Most importantly though, think more along the lines of moving the other sounds to the back than bringing the particular synth you want to the front.

Brilliant advice there, couldn't have said it better myself. This is very true actually, only didn't think to mention it earlier. I think it's a combination of both really, but applying more reverb to other instruments, or reducing the 'presence' range here and there would definitely be a good thing.

___________________
Put an end to the loudness war. Don't limit or compress your mixdown until mastering; leave the master channel alone.

Contact me for mastering.

Not sure what synth your using, but try using less oscillators on your synth. Sounds stupid, I know... but I find with my MicroQ, the less osc I use, the clearer and fatter the sound is. Go back to your synth programming first as it is the source of your signal. Failing that... check your recording source.. are you using a good soundcard to record the signal? Are the cables good quality?

Another suggestion would be to make numerous recordings of the synth and layer them to get a fatter signal. Perhaps with slightly different filter settings to accentuate the frequencies you are lacking in. This might help thought its hard to say without an audio sample.

A pre-amp may help too. Even a cheap one will do and will help to tighten up the signal before it gets recorded. You can pick these up on ebay for less than $200 now. If this is a recurring problem, then you might like to have a look at these.

Theres no need to go running to either compression or fx straight away as these will either reduce the dynamics of your source and essentially make the sound more processed. Use them only when you deem it necessary. You will undoubtably do so during the mixing and mastering process anyway so using them at the recording process is an unecessary step imo.

Good luck =)

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Last edited by Axolotyl on Jul-07-2005 at 09:54

Have to back Atlantis up here.... Compression (=volume more or less!!) is just as important as reverb&delay as those two are the major things about getting your sound in front of the mix...

Reverb and delay wil make a sound more natural, thus place it more in the background. Dry (and loud) sounds are on the foreground. Also making something loud places it in the foreground. Thus compression is just as important!

Very special effects which don't correspond with the regular character of your track will also stand out. So do something weird with your isntrument or something and it will stand out!

On the other hand EQ-ing can be used to make your mix more transparant,which makes every sound speak for itself instead of hearing a bunch of sounds which you can't tell waht actually is playing. EQ ing can be used to place an instrument on top of a mix, but it sure isn't the usual way.

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quote:

Originally posted by Atlantis-AR I really don't understand how people are refering to EQ when positioning a sound with regards to the z-axis (back to front). It's compression that's your best friend, trust me. No need to experiment - that's what you do when you don't know what you're doing. OK, so this will take a few years, but learn and understand how to equalise and compress and eventually it'll come to you naturally, without the need to tweak settings randomly. Because our ears are most sensitive in the ~4 kHz to ~6 kHz range, boosting a sound here will give it more 'presence', because it will appear to stand out as louder when played back at an average volume. However, EQ alone will not simply bring a sound forward in a mix. OK, so we've established that it's a combination of effects, but using a highpass filter to remove the bass frequencies and sucking out the lower mids with a peaking EQ (this one is very instrument specific, by the way, so watch out) won't do the sample justice at all with respect to the z-axis, although I do agree that boosting some 'presence' frequencies helps, as does rolling off the bass-end if it isn't important to the sound in question. Just try some compression to start out with. That's why heavily compressed drums are always loudest and at the front of the mix, and airy, distant pads are left uncompressed to make them sound further away. Also, one final comment on dj jasonF's comment of "using all the effects together": Often, you'll find that less is in fact more, and, as I said previously, a dry sound will in most cases appear louder and at the front of the mix. Of course, compression is an exception here, but don't cloud your sound in effects, including reverb, widening, delays, EQ, panning...they all aren't specific to bringing a sound closer to the front of a mix.

you are talking like compression is the most importand thing... its not if you are a newbie and you are trying to make a lead (that fills the hole spectrum), fit in the mix and make it loud and clean.

and saying "using all the effects together" i ment using the right fx compbination and amount to get the best of it.