quote:

Originally posted by Shakka This guy has it right on.

I have to agree with you on that. My favorite part of the article is when he said, "But the truth is that it was not for us, for Africa, that the musicians at Live 8 were singing; it was to amuse the crowds and to clear their own consciences...." The journalist is right to say that and is very accurate.

Africa is defintley a trickey problem.

You want democracy but the people are perhaps some of the most saveage, poor, and uneducated on this planet - so it will be hard to implement.
You want educated and rich people, but they would require a deomcratic government to come to fruition.

Its a chicken and egg problem.

Throwing money at this situation is perhaps one of the worst things you can do.


Read Natan Sharansky's book, The Case for Democracy Amazon
This book was read by Bush (yes Bush can read!) and influenced his thinking. Bush invited the author to the white house to speak about the book.

This quiet well explains Bush's approach to Africa - money tied to political liberation of a nation.

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Well... duuuuhh. Its not that people don't understand this, its that Africa has so many problems right now few are willing to commit to doing anything. Its much easier to throw money in that general direction and say job done, move on.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Throwing money at this situation is perhaps one of the worst things you can do.

Brilliant. I agre 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 Well... duuuuhh. Its not that people don't understand this, its that Africa has so many problems right now few are willing to commit to doing anything. Its much easier to throw money in that general direction and say job done, move on.

How about 'throwing' that money towards our own homeless then??

I've been saying this since before the big waste of time.
Bono just doesn't seem to get it. While admirable, it's not a solution at all.
Hell, look at, "Live AID". Almost 20 YEARS AGO when we first started seeing poor, malnurished kids and where are they now?
Square one. (good Coldplay song btw) :P

I've posted this one before but it's very prudent.

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...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Bono just doesn't seem to get it. While admirable, it's not a solution at all.

i never liked how he carries on like hes saving the world through his music

Nice to see that I'm not the only who thinks Bono is a high-and-mighty dickhead.

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Wow, mind if I step in and interrupt this anti-humanitarian circle-jerk for a second?

Firstly - and I'm basing this on the article in the OP and the endless succession of disparaging editorials I've had to read in the Australian media - I really do not understand the antipathy directed against Geldoff, Bono and the others who participated in the Live 8 concerts. Even if we assume the worst case scenario - that the debt-relief they're asking for will make no difference whatsoever - why the unabashed antipathy? They're trying to make a difference, they've put on free concerts to raise awareness for a cause that is both worthwhile and easily forgotten in western societies and they've caused no-one any harm by doing so. What, exactly, are you people trying to prove by slating them in such a way? Haven't they succeeded in raising awareness for the plight of people in Africa? Aren't individuals of all political creeds now publicly discussing the best possible solutions to alleviate this crisis? How, exactly, given this, are they deserving of the vitriol directed towards them by the self-righteous, right-wing fucks who, with all due respect, have done absolutely nothing themselves to help the situation?

Secondly - and this is what really shits me about the negativity of those who seem to have an inherent moral opposition to those who make an an effort to alleviate the plight of starving people - there is a ridiculous, completely unjustifiable naivety about the solution these people offer as an alternative. "What they need is democracy and responsible government", I hear, "anything else is just a band-aid solution". Well shit guys, that's all it takes is it? Any idea about how we'd go about installing responsible, democratic governments in about 50 largely war-torn countries though? I mean we've committed about 200,000 troops and $200 billion towards installing responsible, democratic governments in just two countries and even with that sort of commitment we haven't even come close to securing their medium-long term political futures - how the fuck, exactly, would we go about democratising a continent as large as Africa?

I mean, yes - having a responsible, democratic government in power in each of these nations would obviously greatly benefit their plight, but what are we to do in the meantime? Should we just sit around and watch people starve while we condescendingly espouse the merits of a certain political theory, as though the people who suffer the most have any fucking say in the political state of their country? I'm sure that the people of Ethiopia will be greatly encouraged to hear that the 300,000 of them who will starve to death this year, are only starving due to their lack of political freedoms. I know, for one, that if I were starving to death right now, I'd be greatly encouraged by the recent speight of op-eds lending their support to the potential democratisation of my country! Fuck, why would I need food when I have right-wing think tanks exploiting my plight to further advance their sickeningly didactic ideologies?

And this is my point: fine, we would all like to see democracy in African nations right now, but that is no excuse to do nothing in the meantime. Even if chunks of the $40 billion promised via this debt relief are funnelled into corrupt governmental coffers, so long as the poor bastards who are starving to death get some respite, then it's worth it. If some of this money is spent on the construction of infrastructure and sustainable, long-term agricultural programs instead of paying off unstainable debts, then it's worth it. If lives are saved, then, fuck me, it's worth it. If you don't agree that the lives of African people - most of whom will not live to see the democratic African paradise you dream of - are worth saving, then fine. Feel free to continue with your current policy of doing absolutely nothing while lecturing the rest of us about the merits of political freedoms (which you often seem to have a lukewarm commitment to preverving in your own homelands) because that attitude has really gone a long way to solving Africa's problems so far. If you do agree, however, that the lives of the African people are worth saving, then you're just going to have to suck it up and admit - although it might mean conceding some of the moral highground you so desperately crave to the humanitarians you hold an inexplicable hatred towards - that, at the moment, aid donations and debt cancellations are the only hope these people have - however slight that hope might be - of staying alive.

If you think there's a better, more realistic solution, let's hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hell, look at, "Live AID". Almost 20 YEARS AGO when we first started seeing poor, malnurished kids and where are they now? Square one.

And if they're still here at all today as a result of "Live Aid" then it was worth it, wasn't it? Oh no, that's right: the Africans are a nebulous people completely devoid of any hint personality or individuality that might be worth preserving. Statistics tell us that people in Africa are still starving, therefore the lives of the people who have been saved don't count. Africans are just statistics afterall, so even if the lives of individuals such as the "poor, malnurished kids" you speak of have been saved through humanitarian effort it doesn't matter because that homogenous mass of organic matter known as "the Africans" are still starving in large numbers, right? Maybe we should start packing liberal quantities of "democracy" and "freedom" into those aid packages with the food and drinking water to help things along, huh?

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Last edited by Renegade on Jul-20-2005 at 18:57

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Wow, mind if I step in and interrupt this anti-humanitarian circle-jerk for a second? They're trying to make a difference, they've put on free concerts to raise awareness for a cause that is both worthwhile and easily forgotten in western societies and they've caused no-one any harm by doing so. What, exactly, are you people trying to prove by slating them in such a way? Haven't they succeeded in raising awareness for the plight of people in Africa?

You think there's anyone in the world who doesn't know Africa is a shithole? These people are promoting themselves. Hey everyone, let's play music for free until the hunger problems in Africa are solved! They aren't offering a solution to the real problem. Let's go to London, get stoned and drunk and say it's all in the name of saving a few hungry Ethiopians. Please.

quote:

"What they need is democracy and responsible government", I hear, "anything else is just a band-aid (lol!) solution". Well shit guys, that's all it takes is it? Any idea about how we'd go about installing responsible, democratic governments in about 50 largely war-torn countries though? I mean we've committed about 200,000 troops and $200 billion towards installing responsible, democratic governments in just two countries and even with that sort of commitment we haven't even come close to securing their medium-long term political futures - how the fuck, exactly, would we go about democratising a continent as large as Africa?

Quit throwing billions of dollars into the void that is corrupt leadership and get the mighty U.N. to quit turning a blind eye to the oppression and genocide among other things.

quote:

I mean, yes - having a responsible, democratic government in power in each of these nations would obviously greatly benefit their plight, but what are we to do in the meantime?

You know, it's sad. Africa is one of the most resource rich continents on the planet, but it is also the poorest, most oppressed. As ironic as it is, Africa is one of the "richest" continents, but the people of Africa remain the poorest in the world. It's easy to see why. Of course, if America or any other developed nations start pouring troops in and start taking assertive action to change the landscape, the whole world will revolt and say America et al. are just being the imperialistic fuckheads that they always are and they're only interested in stealing Africa's wealth. I mean, Iraq anyone? And why shouldn't America (and others) expect something in return for all of their contributions and sacrifices? Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

quote:

I'm sure that the people of Ethiopia will be greatly encouraged to hear that the 300,000 of them who will starve to death this year, are only starving due to their lack of political freedoms.

I'm sure they're thrilled to know that there are musicians smashing their guitars on stage for a bunch of spoiled party goers just doing their darndest to do...what the hell are they trying to do again?

quote:

I know, for one, that if I were starving to death right now, I'd be greatly encouraged by the recent speight of op-eds lending their support to the potential democratisation of my country! Fuck, why would I need food when I have right-wing think tanks exploiting my plight to further advance their sickeningly didactic ideologies?

Weeee! Blame the right! They just made a massive increase in their pledge to help shitty ole Africa, but again, no good deed goes unpunished. (And yes, I feel that throwing money at the problem is likely exacerbating the situation if anything, so go ahead and blame the right).



Look, it's a serious problem, but if you think Live 8 did a god damn thing to help out other than cause about a million wicked hangovers on Monday morning, then I would have to respectfully disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You think there's anyone in the world who doesn't know Africa is a shithole?

You think that very many people around the world would have been motivated enough to prod the heads of G8 nations into providing debt relief for African nations without the global publicity of these concerts?

quote:

Quit throwing billions of dollars into the void that is corrupt leadership

Right, because the impoverishment of a nation always tends to loosen the grip of the dictator over it, huh?

quote:

and get the mighty U.N. to quit turning a blind eye to the oppression and genocide among other things.

The UN is powerless to involve itself in a situation unless a member state raises the issue and pushes for a resolution. If there is global apathy towards an international crisis, where no member of the UNSC compels the the other members resolve a crisis, what exactly is the beaurocratic shell that is the UN supposed to? Where, for instance, has the US been during these periods of "oppression and genocide"?

quote:

Of course, if America or any other developed nations start pouring troops in and start taking assertive action to change the landscape, the whole world will revolt and say America et al. are just being the imperialistic fuckheads that they always are

The point I'm making is that even if it was morally right for the US (or any other nation, or coalition of nations) to invade African nations with the intent of installing democracy, it would be impossible to do so. Like I said, 200,000 troops and $200 billion haven't been able to bring a stable, democratic government to Iraq or Afghanistan - how the fuck would would we be able to provide such governments to the 50-odd nations of Africa?

As I said in my earlier post, this would obviously the ideal solution. What, though, are we going to do to help the starving people in the meantime?

quote:

and they're only interested in stealing Africa's wealth. I mean, Iraq anyone? And why shouldn't America (and others) expect something in return for all of their contributions and sacrifices? Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

Haha, wow. I'm not sure why you introduced this trainwreck of an argument given its irrelevence to the topic, but I now have the mental image of a band of Vikings ransacking a remote village and saying "Hey, since we've expended so much effort in razing your houses to the ground, I think we deserve to plunder you gold and rape your women, guys...".

In all seriousness, please name me any war in history where the plundering of an invaded nation's resources by the occupying force could be morally justified?

quote:

Weeee! Blame the right! They just made a massive increase in their pledge to help shitty ole Africa, but again, no good deed goes unpunished.

Who, exactly, is "they"? And if by "blame the right" you mean blame the right-wing think-tanks I mentioned for doing absolutely nothing but sitting back espousing the merits of an ideology that is completely unattainable in most parts of the African continent at this point in time, then yes, thank you, I shall. Fuck you, right-wing think-tanks, for your complete absense of a constructive contribution.

quote:

(And yes, I feel that throwing money at the problem is likely exacerbating the situation if anything, so go ahead and blame the right).

Yeah, there's nothing these people need less right now than money to buy food with...

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quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Yeah, there's nothing these people need less right now than money to buy food with...

Well, when food is dropped in or aide is sent, those oppressive dictators manage to always keep it out of the hands of those who most badly need it. Would you suggest ending in armed guards and setting up a police state to ensure that aid gets allocated to the right channels? I'm sure that would be met with armed resistance by the very dictators who we would be trying to bypass. There needs to be global pressure to remove corrupt dictators from power. And by corrupt dictators, I mean every single one of them, except of course Saddam Hussein, because he was a nice guy who just got a bad rap. Remember, the humanitarian portion of the Iraq strategy relieved the most flak because it wasn't viewed as a primary rationale for the war with Iraq and could not be used as justification for removing Saddam Hussein from power. Sorry for my Iraqi tangent, but I see plenty of parallels (I realize you probably had no intention of going down that road).