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Originally posted by ogvh5150

Wow (I guess in a sad sort of way)

You learn something new everyday! Thanks, ogvh5150!

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Wow (I guess in a sad sort of way) You learn something new everyday! Thanks, ogvh5150!

And we are supposed to be supporting our troops and the humanitarianism they show towards Iraqis and other non-combatants.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 And we are supposed to be supporting our troops and the humanitarianism they show towards Iraqis and other non-combatants.

I'm in full support of our troops, it's the war that I strongly disagree with. I think the great majority of our guys mean well - it's just that a few bad apples tend to spoil the whole barrel, which is really unfortunate.

I know a small handfull of G.I.'s that returned from combat totally disillusioned by what they saw over there, who figured out from the get-go what this war was all about. A couple were tasked to secure Iraq's oil pipelines instead of the (since looted) stockpiles of munitions, explosives, etc. Yes, it's a matter of National Security that we preserve Iraq's oil infrastructure - because that's what much of the war is about - preserving that exact interest.

Very sad indeed.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Yes, it's a matter of National Security that we preserve Iraq's oil infrastructure - because that's what much of the war is about - preserving that exact interest.[/color]

regardless of the US' intentions, the protection of iraq's oil supply & infrastructure is paramount to the country's rebuilding and its future. protecting those interests does not, in and of itself, represent oil as the motive of the war (not that im saying it wasnt).

as for the thread's article, i hardly see 1 crazy who lost it as really significant. to me, \"massacre\" in this context raised images of state-sponsored murder. its awful indeed, but a lot less awful than comparable acts in that decade.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN regardless of the US' intentions, the protection of iraq's oil supply & infrastructure is paramount to the country's rebuilding and its future. protecting those interests does not, in and of itself, represent oil as the motive of the war (not that im saying it wasnt). as for the thread's article, i hardly see 1 crazy who lost it as really significant. to me, \"massacre\" in this context raised images of state-sponsored murder. its awful indeed, but a lot less awful than comparable acts in that decade.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. However, troops were given orders not to talk about what they had to do in the course of securing said oil fields and pipelines, that it was a matter of U.S. National Security to secure those Iraqi fields - while in the meantime TONS of high explosives were being looted from unguarded compounds. In my eyes (and those of a few soldiers that I talked to) that more or less defines our true objectives - especially given the fact that Dubya's family had been trying to do business in Iraq since the mid-80's.

Well, there's noone holding them back now.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I'm in full support of our troops, it's the war that I strongly disagree with. I think the great majority of our guys mean well - it's just that a few bad apples tend to spoil the whole barrel, which is really unfortunate. I know a small handfull of G.I.'s that returned from combat totally disillusioned by what they saw over there, who figured out from the get-go what this war was all about. A couple were tasked to secure Iraq's oil pipelines instead of the (since looted) stockpiles of munitions, explosives, etc. Yes, it's a matter of National Security that we preserve Iraq's oil infrastructure - because that's what much of the war is about - preserving that exact interest.

You cannot enlist without expecting to kill. No one can get in and get out unscathed. It doesn't work that way. People enlist because they feel that they're "doing the right thing". I didn't pimp GI Joe into signing up. That's the recruiters job.

You might as well argue that combat troops aren't killers. Yeah big thumbs up for them. Big thumbs up.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 You cannot enlist without expecting to kill. No one can get in and get out unscathed. It doesn't work that way. People enlist because they feel that they're "doing the right thing". I didn't pimp GI Joe into signing up. That's the recruiters job. You might as well argue that combat troops aren't killers. Yeah big thumbs up for them. Big thumbs up.

That's a tough call, though. Most of the guys that I know who have enlisted never expected that they'd be called upon to fight someone else's dirty wars. They seemed to think that they were more or less going to be serving the defensive interests of our country, rather than the offensive.

Remember, up until more recently our country had never really engaged in any large scale "preemptive" attacks on anyone.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X That's a tough call, though. Most of the guys that I know who have enlisted never expected that they'd be called upon to fight someone else's dirty wars. They seemed to think that they were more or less going to be serving the defensive interests of our country, rather than the offensive.

See how it works now?

If you were a drug addict who do you blame? You, the seller or the drugs?

No one forced you to be a drug addict. You chose to grab the pipe. You chose to convince yourself that you can do it alone before you hit bottom scraping by on dumpster dining.

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Remember, up until more recently our country had never really engaged in any large scale "preemptive" attacks on anyone.

Might I remind you about The Project for the New American Century's Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century? Does that ring a bell? Or what about Shock And Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance?
They should be since these texts were written before any so called preemptions were to take place.

This is not about accidental history because no such thing exists, you should have known this by now.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 See how it works now? If you were a drug addict who do you blame? You, the seller or the drugs? No one forced you to be a drug addict. You chose to grab the pipe. You chose to convince yourself that you can do it alone before you hit bottom scraping by on dumpster dining. Might I remind you about The Project for the New American Century's Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century? Does that ring a bell? Or what about Shock And Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance? They should be since these texts were written before any so called preemptions were to take place. This is not about accidental history because no such thing exists, you should have known this by now.

That's not a very good analogy, though. Serving your country really cannot be equated to consuming noxious or illicit substances.

Anyway, how many people do you really think knew about PNAC or any of those other think tanks' agendas or proposed policies before 9/11? Very few. How many people do you think actually foresaw the shift of direction in our foreign policy during the last five or ten years? I'm also willing to say that it was only a small minority who were really in the know.