Yeah, I guess you could lump me into this category.

I think I make my stance pretty clear in these two threads:

God Bless Us!
Oh To Be a Kabulian! (Which includes, unofficially, the longest post ever )

So yeah, put me down. I'd like to help.

Frankly i'm for the efforts.....

I understand your guys angle, but someone has to act as a world police... i refuse to sit idly by and let this shit happen.... and no, "talks" ain't gonna fix it.

I understand the US did something to create their anger in the first place, but the 9.11 attacks were ridiculous.

Maybe the methods we are using to get to the Taliban are not the most moral, but were their methods of getting "revenge" on US moral??? nope.

BTW - of course i'm for it... i'm employed by the US Government! I'd be outta a job otherwise

-ABT-

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Peace.

i understand the sentiment that pacifists have, but the reality is that war is an essential facet of human existence, people that live in the West have forgotten this.

As long as there are humans there will be War. It is an inevitability. In response to this a pacifist would say, well nothing will ever change with that kind of attitude.

My response to that is: EXACTLY. Nothing ever truly changes. There was a very strong pacifist movement at the turn of the 20th century. It didnt stop World War 1. The Western powers in the 1930's cut back on defence spending, the shadow of World War 1 still fresh in the minds of most people. Did that stop war. No it meant the Western powers were ill-prepared for World War 2.

As for any claim that the United States should be world policeman. I thought that the United Nations was supposed to do that. If the United States actually supported the United Nations and respected international law(which it has nothing but contempt for)rather than undermine it at every turn, then perhaps the United States would enjoy more popular support for its actions in Afghanistan than it does.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert i understand the sentiment that pacifists have, but the reality is that war is an essential facet of human existence, people that live in the West have forgotten this. As long as there are humans there will be War. It is an inevitability. In response to this a pacifist would say, well nothing will ever change with that kind of attitude. My response to that is: EXACTLY. Nothing ever truly changes. There was a very strong pacifist movement at the turn of the 20th century. It didnt stop World War 1. The Western powers in the 1930's cut back on defence spending, the shadow of World War 1 still fresh in the minds of most people. Did that stop war. No it meant the Western powers were ill-prepared for World War 2. As for any claim that the United States should be world policeman. I thought that the United Nations was supposed to do that. If the United States actually supported the United Nations and respected international law(which it has nothing but contempt for)rather than undermine it at every turn, then perhaps the United States would enjoy more popular support for its actions in Afghanistan than it does.

true.... but i wish that people in general wouldn't be so naive about everything.... the USA does what it does for reasons that are usually in its' own best interests... Think we are acting selfishly? Sure we are, but what's the problem? Why would someone NOT act in their own best interests.... This reminds me of the quote by Robert DeNiro in RONIN... when the Irish soldier said "You worried about saving your own skin?" .. and DeNiro replied "Yeah, it covers my body."

We didn't supply Bin Laden with Arms 10 years ago for nothing.... we had reasons then, we have reasons for hunting him now... the public doesn't know all the reasons, but the public shouldn't.... In a country with as much civil problems as ours, where citizens are so illiterate they can't even fill out a voting ballot correctly, do you really want the public deciding what we (as a country) do? ... neither do i.

Again, its a lot more complicated than what the media makes it out to be... if things in reality were as they appear to us, the public, then believe me, a LOT of countries would be stepping in to intervene.... We may not openly have the support of many nations, but i can guarantee there is a silent vote of support from most of them. And as insignificant as that may seem you, it means everything in the world of politics

Cheers
-ABT-

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Peace.

Yeah I'm with ABT. I don't think anybody is in favour of war but sometimes there's no other option. It's often the only thing that can be done to protect your people and uphold your beliefs. And in some situations war is preceeded by years and years of violence and unrest which isn't just going to die out. At least war will usually sort things out once and for all.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert As for any claim that the United States should be world policeman. I thought that the United Nations was supposed to do that. If the United States actually supported the United Nations and respected international law(which it has nothing but contempt for)rather than undermine it at every turn, then perhaps the United States would enjoy more popular support for its actions in Afghanistan than it does.

That I agree with, though Britain didn't exactly waste much time jumping on the bandwagon either.

Woo! Looks like I started something interesting. Good.

Britain showed it's support early, and so did canada. But what needs to be realized is that just because a country supports something does not mean that all it's people do. I know for a fact that there is STRONG antiwar movement in canada, even as we sent 750 troops to afghanistan the other day. As well, there are peace marches in britain, thousands of people, representing the feelings of many more.

with george bush's with us or against us attitude, no country can afford to "officialy" not support this war. But the citizens are getting more and more pissed off.

here we go again ....

I support the war in Afghanistan....as most people know......and i will also support the war in Iraq and Somalia..when they come forth......

Because of this War , Afhanistan has become a BETTER place to live then it was under Taliban rule...THATS a FACT.....and u can thank the war for this......

Pacifists in general are not realists........there will NEVER be a world without war..it is impossible aslong as Religion, Money, Greed, and Power are around....you get rid of all 4 things and maybe you have a slight chance of a world without war...but even then it is most likely impossible...

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

I knew you'd be along eventually tiesto14

I respect your opinion, thanks for sharing, please let's keep this civil.

I believe that all the wars are because we believe in different Gods. If no one believe in goods, then ... Will there be wars? Difficult answer!

RavingLunatic... ...you know me...you and i are debating pals..

jlosada --
War...you are right has to do with God...not just different gods but different beleifs....

but even if there was no religion...you still have money, power , greed and hate to go to war over...war is not going anywhere.,,it will and can never happen....of course we all want a peaceful world but thats not a reality nor will it EVER be...

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

"I believe that all the wars are because we believe in different Gods. If no one believe in goods, then ... Will there be wars? Difficult answer!"

Yeah that opinion is kind of popular but thats atheistic propaganda Seriously I think religion's got not a lot do with human confilcts. I bet that some Neanderthals who lived in their caves also hit each other when one tribe wanted more meat form the kiled Mammouth than the others...
HUmans are after all animals, sad but true. The failure of Communism prooves it in my opinion. The socialism just cant be maintained in a world of jealousy , egoism and power seeking. The animalic - bigger eats smaller species - capitalism on the other hand succeeds.
Now what is war? Some politiciain once defined it as a continuation of politics with different means/methods. No, dont get me wrong, I think it is the last step that should be made but Im conveinced that there ARE and have been justified and necessary wars throughout history.
Hitler for example. Chamberlain tried, gave up czecoslovacia and got the invasion of Poland and the Holocaust back. I just try to imagine who "talks" would have looked like then..."Listen Hitler, leave the Jews alone get outta Paris and Poland, forget Russia..please? please please pretty please with cherrys on the top?"
When have pacifists EVER changed minds of militarists?
What is a justified war? A self-defending war. Switzerland invades Austria? Here we go then ..Nothing agains u swiss guys here But i hope that u get my point. A simpler example. Some1 enters your house and says "hi there , thats mine now" or just comes to you pulls a knife and wants your money. If u have a, lets say aistol, with you..What will you do?

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”