I wanted to sample some parts from some non-dance music and remix them into dance music... from what I have been learning the past few weeks, people told me I could do this with Reason/ReCycle. I have had some trouble using ReCycle because it asks me to select a bar length and I put in any number and when I load it into Reason, it says the BPM is 400+ or some ridiculous number... and as far as Reason, when I make a bassline, how do I make the bassline progress so that after 32 beats,(1 measure I believe?), something changes in the mix. It seems Reason is perfect for making great loops but even if I automated it, and didn't do it right, the progression would sound off from the end of the 32nd beat into something new.

I have Pro Tools LE 7.3 with an MBox2 Pro Interface (firewire, 6 inputs/8 outputs) and people have told me to use this to sample to exact parts I want instead of Recycle. I'm pretty proficient on this over any software. I also have Cubase SX3 but I'm unfamiliar with it although it seems very much like Pro Tools. I used to use MOTU Digital Performer 5 and it seems like it is probably the best software to lay down a bassline/melody and put the sampled parts on top of that. Can anyone help me out so I don't work too hard and do something destructive? If anyone understands photo-editing analogies, then the way I feel is that I might be able to accomplish a vision of a picture in microsoft paint but I will be wasting time and doing destructive edits to a piece of work when photoshop is available but I'm just not aware of its potential to accomplish what I'm trying to do.

Summing everything up, what would you guys say the best program to do a basic sample and remix of a non-dance song and to lay down a bassline/beat that doesn't sound like a loop and actually has different elements in it?

Sorry if I sound so vague but I'm trying to get into this field I have experience working in a fullly commercial music studio but they specialize in rock/acoustics/the music business so they haven't been able to help me at all with dance music. I know all about mic placement/correcting problems in the studio/acoustic problems/etc rather than dance music because I wasn't as lucky to have people working with me that are into dance music. I DJ but I want to remix and make my own material!

Last edited by AmericnWldChild on May-23-2007 at 00:19

quote:

Originally posted by AmericnWldChild I wanted to sample some parts from some non-dance music and remix them into dance music... from what I have been learning the past few weeks, people told me I could do this with Reason/ReCycle. I have had some trouble using ReCycle because it asks me to select a bar length and I put in any number and when I load it into Reason, it says the BPM is 400+ or some ridiculous number... and as far as Reason, when I make a bassline, how do I make the bassline progress so that after 32 beats,(1 measure I believe?), something changes in the mix. It seems Reason is perfect for making great loops but even if I automated it, and didn't do it right, the progression would sound off from the end of the 32nd beat into something new.

Sounds like the problem is you. One measure is 4 beats, not 32. This may explain your 400+ or some rediculous bpm.

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Ableton is pretty much the go-to software for this kind of thing, but you can do the same thing in PT. Seeing as you're already familiar with PT, I would use that.

What you want to do... is cut out the parts you want using a wave editor. Then filter the stuff you dont want out of those parts. Then you want to timestretch them to the tempo of the song youre making.

Agree with echosystem, get ableton. It's pretty much made for what you are trying to achieve.
Recycle is ok, ableton will do it better.

Ehm, well, you need to work out the time signature of the loop your dealing with is first, then tell recycle, thats what the bar length setting is for, I guess if your from a strictly engineering point of view you don't know anything about time signatures or actual "music" (as opposed to sound)?? you may need to ask a friend who's a drummer or something what time signature your dealing with, could be 4/4 or 3/4 its never anything with a 32 in it for sure! Try 4/4 or 3/4 to start with...Then call for help.
Personally I'd use pro tools or Ableton for this sort of thing, because reason's just not equipped to deal with audio.
So what I would do is do what others are saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Pjotr G Sounds like the problem is you. One measure is 4 beats, not 32. This may explain your 400+ or some rediculous bpm.

Yeah I understand very little about music theory... I was always sure that a "measure" was everything that happened in those 32 beats and after that, a new "measure" would start comprised of an element from the last "measure" and something added or taken away depending on the part of the song... thats what I was trying to say

quote:

Originally posted by echosystm Ableton is pretty much the go-to software for this kind of thing, but you can do the same thing in PT. Seeing as you're already familiar with PT, I would use that. What you want to do... is cut out the parts you want using a wave editor. Then filter the stuff you dont want out of those parts. Then you want to timestretch them to the tempo of the song youre making.

I can definately cut out the parts I need with PT with ease and I know all about the time/compression-expansion plug ins, etc. As far as filtering, are you saying if I took out a part that had drums and guitar in it, I could filter out the drums so I could just hear the guitar?? It seems magical but isn't this just simple EQing like for example if I wanted the guitar and just EQing the drums out around the low end (60-120Hz) on an equalizer or is there a way for me to eliminate just the individual elements (I highly doubt it since I'm not working with the original WAV files and just a finished MP3 of the song)

Also, how will I build up my dance-portion of the mix? Can I do this in Ableton as well or should I try and work my way around the MIDI section in Cubase and finish it there and as far as mixing, would it be easier to put it all together in Cubase, Ableton, or Pro Tools? My friend does rap stuff where he builds the beats in Reason, exports his beats as WAV files into Pro Tools and then mixes it there but it sounds like shit and is basically a huge loop with automation and the automation part as far as the elements or changing in the mix after those "32 beats" as I have mentioned above are very shaky.... its not like a dance cut you hear by famous trance/house guys. Thats why I need to know if Ableton or Cubase are good specifically for this.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Ehm, well, you need to work out the time signature of the loop your dealing with is first, then tell recycle, thats what the bar length setting is for, I guess if your from a strictly engineering point of view you don't know anything about time signatures or actual "music" (as opposed to sound)?? you may need to ask a friend who's a drummer or something what time signature your dealing with, could be 4/4 or 3/4 its never anything with a 32 in it for sure! Try 4/4 or 3/4 to start with...Then call for help. Personally I'd use pro tools or Ableton for this sort of thing, because reason's just not equipped to deal with audio. So what I would do is do what others are saying.

Yeah I am definately going to check out Ableton this week... I got it for free along with a big software bundle when I got Pro Tools and in my music theory class I took, the teacher brushed over everything so fast, I forgot mostly everything... I remember for the 3/4, 4/4 time signature, one of the numbers represented the beat or quarter note or something and the other was an "ID number" as he called it... but yeah its not going to help me at all! I wonder if the bars/beats section in Pro Tools is accurate because it shows it on this ruler at the top... maybe I could input that same number for the sample or portion I want to use...

Thanks!!!

quote:

Originally posted by AmericnWldChild Yeah I understand very little about music theory... I was always sure that a "measure" was everything that happened in those 32 beats and after that, a new "measure" would start comprised of an element from the last "measure" and something added or taken away depending on the part of the song... thats what I was trying to say Also, how will I build up my dance-portion of the mix? Can I do this in Ableton as well or should I try and work my way around the MIDI section in Cubase and finish it there and as far as mixing, would it be easier to put it all together in Cubase, Ableton, or Pro Tools? My friend does rap stuff where he builds the beats in Reason, exports his beats as WAV files into Pro Tools and then mixes it there but it sounds like shit and is basically a huge loop with automation and the automation part as far as the elements or changing in the mix after those "32 beats" as I have mentioned above are very shaky.... its not like a dance cut you hear by famous trance/house guys. Thats why I need to know if Ableton or Cubase are good specifically for this. Yeah I am definately going to check out Ableton this week... I got it for free along with a big software bundle when I got Pro Tools and in my music theory class I took, the teacher brushed over everything so fast, I forgot mostly everything... I remember for the 3/4, 4/4 time signature, one of the numbers represented the beat or quarter note or something and the other was an "ID number" as he called it... but yeah its not going to help me at all! I wonder if the bars/beats section in Pro Tools is accurate because it shows it on this ruler at the top... maybe I could input that same number for the sample or portion I want to use... Thanks!!!

OK, I understand where you're coming from now, forget about measures and bars, they aren't the same thing and neither have to be 32 beats long. Actually, in trance, a measure (as you call it, although I suspect this may be wrong) is usually 16 beats (or four bars, its the same thing in 4/4 time) after which time a new element or melody will come in. This isn't set in stone, its just a convention which is simetimes helpful, four bars is long enough to get people interested and satisfy them without boring them. Time signature tells you how many beats there are in a bar. Often, you find a pattern repeats every bar, or in pop music often chords are held for a bar before a new chord. This is helpful to writers and people who play from scores and stuff, not really to people like you and me, except where you need to tell a program what the signature is to set up a click track or something (you must do that as an engineer?) May I suggest you buy a theory book? There are used ones on amazon which will work for you just fine.

The version of ableton is most likely live lite, its only capable of playing four tracks or something and probably won't help you. Pro tools doesn't work for trance at all. Cubase is an option. Don't bother trying in Pro Tools, really.

Also, don't use reason. And don't try and do stuff in reason then export it. This is all a very bad idea, you seem to know this Try and keep everything in one environment, it really doesn't matter where you mix, ableton, pro tools and cubase all have an adequate mixer architecture if you know them a bit. The dance portion of your song is good to build up in ableton or cubase, pro tools won't work. Forget about using pro tools for dance music, its behind the times, ableton or cubase are cutting edge.

Filtering will help to an extent, just try it and see if it works, otherwise your other option is to re record or try and get an accepella or something.

The only other thing I can say is that you're probably aiming a bit too high for your first production... You seem to be trying to get it perfect and I understand adn respect that, but you need to realise you probably won't, you'll learn the most about this stuff just by fiddling and playing around, full tracks don't come till later, its a pity but maybe the idea your working on now will come back to you when you have the skills to execute it and will sound great Does that cover all your questions?

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips OK, I understand where you're coming from now, forget about measures and bars, they aren't the same thing and neither have to be 32 beats long. Actually, in trance, a measure (as you call it, although I suspect this may be wrong) is usually 16 beats (or four bars, its the same thing in 4/4 time) after which time a new element or melody will come in. This isn't set in stone, its just a convention which is simetimes helpful, four bars is long enough to get people interested and satisfy them without boring them. Time signature tells you how many beats there are in a bar. Often, you find a pattern repeats every bar, or in pop music often chords are held for a bar before a new chord. This is helpful to writers and people who play from scores and stuff, not really to people like you and me, except where you need to tell a program what the signature is to set up a click track or something (you must do that as an engineer?) May I suggest you buy a theory book? There are used ones on amazon which will work for you just fine. The version of ableton is most likely live lite, its only capable of playing four tracks or something and probably won't help you. Pro tools doesn't work for trance at all. Cubase is an option. Don't bother trying in Pro Tools, really. Also, don't use reason. And don't try and do stuff in reason then export it. This is all a very bad idea, you seem to know this Try and keep everything in one environment, it really doesn't matter where you mix, ableton, pro tools and cubase all have an adequate mixer architecture if you know them a bit. The dance portion of your song is good to build up in ableton or cubase, pro tools won't work. Forget about using pro tools for dance music, its behind the times, ableton or cubase are cutting edge. Filtering will help to an extent, just try it and see if it works, otherwise your other option is to re record or try and get an accepella or something. The only other thing I can say is that you're probably aiming a bit too high for your first production... You seem to be trying to get it perfect and I understand adn respect that, but you need to realise you probably won't, you'll learn the most about this stuff just by fiddling and playing around, full tracks don't come till later, its a pity but maybe the idea your working on now will come back to you when you have the skills to execute it and will sound great Does that cover all your questions?

Thanks again!!!

Now, if I took the sample and it was 132BPM, and theoretically, I finished the dance part of my track, how would I sync up the vocals/guitar parts so that each note or word locks onto the corresponding beats without "falling off"... I noticed alot of trance remixes of rock/pop tunes have mastered this perfectly... one way I thought about doing it was to cut up each word individually and throw it on top of a beat but this seems like I would be working too hard and sometimes, maybe there would be a delay in the words and sound like a huge "breath" in the song or sound like a robotic voice/me splicing up the words and putting them together... What is the learning curve like on Ableton? I remember a long time ago, I tried to use it to DJ and I had no experience at all with studio gear but now all these programs seem to look the same/serve the same basic function so hopefully it won't be as hard for me maybe I'll buy it today... and what about Logic? Do producers use it for what I'm trying to accomplish or should I just stick to Cubase/Ableton

Well, logic only works for mac and does pretty much the same things as cubase (more or less) theres also digital performer and a million other hosts which are all just personal preference, try and get a demo or something if you want to try them out.
To make a remix, you don't usually cut up words individually (unless your very advanced and doing stutter edits or something like that) you just take the original source, take your remix and get them both synced to the same BPM.
Its not like you write a dance part then take the sample and combine the two, its more like you take the sample and use it as part of your piece as you write it. To do that you use time compression or expansion to get the original sample to a danceable BPM like 135 or something like that. But you can't always speed it up that much so sometimes its a compromise between your dance part and the original sample's BPM. The learning curve on ableton is nothing if you have experience, there are demos for it and you can just read the manual and decide if its too much work. Its probably easier than cubase anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips forget about measures and bars, they aren't the same thing and neither have to be 32 beats long. Actually, in trance, a measure (as you call it, although I suspect this may be wrong) is usually 16 beats (or four bars, its the same thing in 4/4 time) after which time a new element or melody will come in.

Wow, that's completely, 100% wrong.

A measure is exactly the same thing as a bar. Well, there's a subtle difference, that being that a measure refers to what's in the bar and not necessarily the bar itself. For all practical purposes, it's the same.

There are lots of different words for larger groupings depending on the context; 4 bars might constitute a phrase or a progression but that really depends on the content.

To OP: I'm pretty sure that your problem is just that you're entering the wrong bar length. Try snipping one bar from your song (most likely 4 beats) and processing that in ReCycle, and if you're still having problems, post a sample of the bar you're trying to process and the settings you used.

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