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M.Johan
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: CAIRO ,EGYPT
The Reality about the Iranian support: of viloance in Iraq

I think that' this's the best article
about the Iranian support of violance in Iraq
by the

British American Security Information Council

So i will start from that part:

Scepticism over US claims

Full article:
http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Papers/iran03.pdf

quote:
Scepticism over US claims

Despite efforts by the Bush administration to confirm the strength of evidence presented, doubt still surrounds the case against Iran, particularly with regard to the degree of direct involvement of the Iranian leadership. Indeed, many comparisons have been made with the build-up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, when then Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that the evidence of Iraqi chemical and biological weapons was irrefutable.Contradictory statements regarding the degree to which any Iranian connection can be directly linked to the Iranian government have emerged. At the briefing, officials said that the highest levels of the Iranian government were thought to be directing the use of weapons killing US troops. But the following day Marine Gen. Peter Pace,Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he had no evidence that Iran’s government was directing the supply of weapons to Shia insurgent groups in Iraq.

Iran Discussion Paper No.3 May 2007

-----------------------------------------------------------
Page 9

Significant debate has taken place over the origin of EFPs, which American officials claim to know have come from Iran. US assertions centre on the fact that certain EFP components – most notably the metal discs – are not thought to be manufactured in Iraq, whereas it is known that the expertise and equipment are available in Iran.However, there are difficulties with this analysis. In November 2005, US troops raided a Baghdad machine shop and found a pile of copper discs stamped out as part of what looked to be an ongoing order, suggesting that production may also be taking place on Iraqi territory. In addition, individuals with experience working with explosives in the petroleum industry, of which there would be a considerable number in Iraq, would likely have the expertise to manufacture shaped charges for EFPs.Once the principle of manufacturing such devices has been learnt, it can be replicated quickly and cheaply.As one Pentagon analyst commented, the cost of producing an EFP would be no more than $30.In addition, seeking to pinpoint the source of a particular piece of technological know-how is very difficult, as it is likely to have been leaked into an informal network, and EFPs are not exclusive to Iran, but are in fact relatively common around the world.

With regard to other weapons found in Iraq and alleged to have come from Iran, the link is again hard to confirm. In common with many countries, Iran sells munitions on the international arms market, and so Iranian weapons may surface in various countries without the direction of Iranian authorities. In an illustration of the loose nature of the international arms trade,Oxfam reported in 2006 that bullets manufactured in the US,Greece, Russia and China all ended up in the Democratic Republic of Congo, despite a UN arms embargo. On the private, grey and illicit markets it is probable that Iranian weapons, or more likely components, could move from Iran to Iraq in a few months.

Although not part of the February 2007 evidence briefing, it has also been previously alleged that Iran has contributed to the Iraqi violence through its weak border controls. In November 2004 an Iraqi official said that over 100 volunteer fighters had entered southern Iraq from Iran that year. Brig. Gen. Douglas Raaberg, Deputy Director of Operations for US Central Command, asserted that Iran was allowing insurgents to cross into Iraq. deliberate Iranian strategy to allow jihadis passage into Iraq, however, is difficult to ascertain. The mountainous border region between the countries is 800 miles long, and notoriously difficult to police beyond official crossing points. Smuggling has long been endemic in the area. Also important to note is that, according to a UK diplomat, and corroborated by additional evidence, of the foreign fighters in Iraq, most jihadis are thought to arrive from Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

In sum, the evidence thus far of Iranian involvement in Iraqi roadside bombs and other support of militia groups is somewhat patchy. It is very difficult to track the flow of funds, arms and personnel across Iraq’s porous borders with Iran. What has been discovered so far may represent small elements of a bigger picture, but at this stage experts are left trying to extrapolate from limited certainties to form broader conclusions. American intelligence on the ground is limited in Iran, and resembles the intelligence gaps before the invasion of Iraq. This is especially true in relation to understanding of the internal Iranian decision-making structure, and knowledge of who controls centres of power.

------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

It is difficult to prove that Iran is directly connected to the continuing violence in Iraq. Direct confrontation with US and other foreign troops, and increasing instability in the country more generally, are unlikely to further Iranian interests. Rather, Iran’s interest lies in supporting and training allies to influence their political positioning in a post-war, post-occupation Iraq. Whilst Tehran does not wish to see Iraq become a become a severe and direct security threat. If the Iraqi civil war were to get out of hand, Iran might feel obliged to help its Shia co-religionists more pro-actively against Sunni death squads,risking a spiralling involvement in the Iraqi conflict. Long-term,a failed state would have unpredictable consequences and would impact on economic relations with a major trading partner. For these reasons, although official Iranian policy opposes the US presence in Iraq, suggestions of a relatively fast US withdrawal are prompting a degree of unease in Tehran.

However, although spiralling Iraqi violence poses considerable risk to Iran, this cannot be taken to mean that Tehran is not supporting such activity across the border. Many western intelligence and Middle East experts believe that Tehran is pursuing a policy of ‘managed chaos’ in Iraq. According to such thinking, US plans for the country are disrupted without a state of complete lawlessness emerging, creating political space for Iran to seek to shape a new Iraqi government. be supporting militia activity in order to align itself with the likely power-holders in a future Iraq. In May 2007 a British adviser to the local police force in Basra described most of the force as being under the control of different factions and militias,including Moqtada al-Sadr’s forces, and the Badr Brigade.play a role; Iran finds the nationalist rhetoric of Moqtada al-Sadr problematic, but the maintenance of ties with the popular and high profile Mahdi Army leader may prove beneficial. Indeed, backing being given by Tehran to the Mahdi Army and the Badr Corps may be intended as much to build and maintain relations as to support violent activity.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Iran has an incentive to avoid involving itself more directly militarily in Iraq, as this might provoke armed confrontation with the United States, and possibly wider regional conflict. Thus deniability is likely to be a key factor in any Iranian military strategy in Iraq, as far as such a coordinated plan exists.Conversely, however,Tehran also stands to gain from asserting the importance of Iranian input into any regional political settlement, an end which might conflict directly with efforts to ensure plausible deniability of involvement in Iraq.

Most beneficial for Tehran would be the emergence of a friendly, preferably Shia,Iraqi government, strong enough to keep Iraq together but too weak to pose a military threat. Such a situation in Iraq would provide a security buffer zone for Iran against foreign invasion,and the political dominance of Iraqi Shia would likely deter future US aggression against Iran, as US fortunes in Iraq would depend on Shia cooperation.

There is a clear rationale for Iran to seek to shape developments in Iraq, and although convincing evidence is limited as to whether this includes a military strategy, there are strong indications that elements of the Iranian regime are operating to this end. If this is in fact the case, such activity will not have begun just in the last few months.Indeed, in October 2005, William Patey, then British ambassador to Iraq, told reporters that Iran had been supplying technology used to kill British troops in Basra.This has prompted some to ask why the US administration decided to produce the evidence of Iranian involvement when it did. One explanation might be that only now has the accumulated evidence become substantial enough to make a strong case against Tehran. Another reason could be the rising death toll from EFPs in recent months, as the number of attacks against coalition forces nearly doubled in 2006.

Whatever the true extent and nature of Iranian military action in Iraq, few independent analysts believe Tehran is playing a decisive role in the sectarian warfare and insurgency. suggests that other, more strategic motives also lie behind the considerable US political energy being expended on highlighting the Iranian role in Iraq. Iran may present a useful scapegoat to divert the blame for failures in Iraq away from the occupying powers. Recent allegations must also be considered in the context of the current crisis surrounding Iran’s nuclear programme. If Tehran can be cast as a source of regional instability in the eyes of the international community, then the US administration’s hand will be strengthened as it seeks support for stronger measures to oppose Iranian nuclear ambitions. In particular, should the administration decide to embark on a military strike – an option which it says is still ‘on the table’ – then garnering public and political support in advance would be vital. Without it, the global unpopularity for military action would likely greatly exceed the opposition to the invasion of Iraq.


In light of the long-standing connections between Iran and Iraq, and the history of relations between Iran and militia groups in the region, it is certainly plausible that Tehran is providing key military and logistical support to certain militia groups in Iraq. Although further information has emerged since the US presentation in February 2007, the broader picture remains unclear. Whilst claims of Iranian foul play may yet be further substantiated, it is important also to acknowledge that Tehran has a legitimate right to be involved in certain ways within Iraq. Iran is justified in seeking to shape events to its own benefit in a peaceful and constructive manner, and so a distinction needs to be maintained between Iranian ‘meddling’ and other, lawful activities. Until the exact nature and extent of this Iranian activity can be ascertained more fully it is inevitable that evidence presented by US and UK authorities will be treated with scepticism. Few are ready to accept a repeat of the intelligence debacle which contributed to the 2003 Iraq war.


___________________
"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



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Last edited by M.Johan on Jun-12-2007 at 19:49

Old Post Jun-12-2007 19:44  Egypt
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:

Iran has an incentive to avoid involving itself more directly militarily in Iraq, as this might provoke armed confrontation with the United States, and possibly wider regional conflict. Thus deniability is likely to be a key factor in any Iranian military strategy in Iraq, as far as such a coordinated plan exists.Conversely, however,Tehran also stands to gain from asserting the importance of Iranian input into any regional political settlement, an end which might conflict directly with efforts to ensure plausible deniability of involvement in Iraq.


This part of the article, regarding the 'plausible deniability' lets Iran sit pretty, assuming of course the administration has any involvement; either way works in their favour.
However I question Iran's lack of responsibility in their investigation which I'm willing to guess is non-existant.


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Old Post Jun-12-2007 20:16  Canada
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Krypton
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Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

I very much suspect Iran is involved somehow at some level. But we can't jump to conclusions and say the government elite are directly involved until we have the 'smoking gun'. Do we have a smoking gun?

I thought this was an interesting development.

source
quote:
U.S.: Iran sending weapons to Taliban By JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 12, 6:16 PM ET



PARIS - A senior U.S. diplomat accused Iran on Tuesday of transferring weapons to Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan — the most direct comments yet on the issue by a ranking American official.

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns, speaking to reporters in Paris, said Iran was funding insurrections across the Middle East — and "Iran is now even transferring arms to the Taliban in Afghanistan."

"It's a country that's trying to flex its muscles, but in a way that's injurious to the interests of just about everybody else in the world," he said. "I think it's a major miscalculation."

In Afghanistan last week, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Iranian weapons were falling into the hands of Taliban fighters, but stopped short of blaming the government itself.

Iran's possible role in aiding insurgents in Iraq has long been hotly debated, and last month some Western and Persian Gulf governments charged that the Islamic government in Tehran is also secretly bolstering Taliban fighters.

In an interview with The Associated Press on Monday, U.S. Army Gen. Dan McNeill said Taliban fighters are showing signs of better training, using combat techniques comparable to "an advanced Western military" in ambushes of U.S. Special Forces soldiers.

"In Afghanistan it is clear that the Taliban is receiving support, including arms from ... elements of the Iranian regime," British Prime Minister Tony Blair wrote in the May 31 edition of the Economist.

Iran, which is also in a dispute with the West over its nuclear program, denies the Taliban accusation, calling it part of a broad anti-Iranian campaign. Tehran says it makes no sense that a Shiite-led government like itself would help the fundamentalist Sunni movement of the Taliban.

Burns also criticized Iran's perceived intransigence over its nuclear program, which many Western powers fear masks a plan to build weapons — though Iran says its intentions are to generate energy.

Burns insisted new U.N. Security Council measures were needed "so that the Iranians don't have business as usual."

"We will have to move forward at the Security Council for a third ... resolution in a matter of weeks," he said.

The council imposed sanctions on Iran on Dec. 23 for refusing to suspend uranium enrichment despite U.N. demands, and modestly increased the sanctions March 24 when Tehran stepped up its enrichment program.

"We believe that beyond (the third resolution), Europe and the Asian countries and Middle Eastern countries will have to adopt even harsher sanction measures outside the Security Council," Burns added.

Many have sought new sanctions after the International Atomic Energy Agency's recent report that Iran's enrichment program was expanding — and its warning for the first time that its knowledge of Tehran's nuclear activities was shrinking.

The prospect of council action appeared more likely after a senior Iranian envoy abruptly canceled talks Monday with the head of the IAEA.


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Old Post Jun-13-2007 01:56  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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venomX
ISO salty whenches



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada

quote:

"It's a country that's trying to flex its muscles, but in a way that's injurious to the interests of just about everybody else in the world," he said. "I think it's a major miscalculation."


If I didn't know the context I would swear this is referring to the States. Pot calling kettle... what?


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Old Post Jun-13-2007 02:35  Dominican Republic
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Yohan
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Kitchener, Ont, Soviet Canuckistan

Why wouldn't Iran try for a powerplay now?

Great Satan is tied up and its military is overstretched with shaky home support, oil rich Iraq with large Shiite pop. that looks to Iran as their saviour against Sunnis and no strong central govt, Afghanistan in similar situation as Iraq but drains the Great Satan's resources even more and no one else in Middle East can't take advantage of the situation except Iran.

Sounds like a perfect timing for me.


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Old Post Jun-13-2007 02:48  Canada
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTree
Why wouldn't Iran try for a powerplay now?


they wouldn't. they're scared shitless of GWB. they know that will change in 18 months.

Iran knows what they're doing when it comes to traing and arming proxy armies. they've been doing it since the Revolution.

don't believe the hype. the great satan isn't overstretched beyond reaking some MAJOR havoc for them militarily. domestic ideologically maybe, but far far from militarily.

Old Post Jun-13-2007 05:36  United States
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M.Johan
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: CAIRO ,EGYPT

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
they wouldn't. they're scared shitless of GWB. they know that will change in 18 months.
Iran knows what they're doing when it comes to traing and arming proxy armies. they've been doing it since the Revolution.
don't believe the hype. the great satan isn't overstretched beyond reaking some MAJOR havoc for them militarily. domestic ideologically maybe, but far far from militarily.

The majority of Iraqi people are Shiaa
,the both (Shiaa & Sunni) are against "the American occupation"
resistance against the US.'s surrender


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"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles de Gaulle

Old Post Jun-13-2007 07:44  Egypt
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by M.Johan
The majority of Iraqi people are Shiaa
,the both (Shiaa & Sunni) are against "the American occupation"
resistance against the US.'s surrender


what?

Old Post Jun-13-2007 08:00  United States
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M.Johan
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: CAIRO ,EGYPT

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
what?

i mean that all the Iraqi people are against the american existance in Iraq,
and that's why they deal with Iran.


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"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



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Old Post Jun-13-2007 08:08  Egypt
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by M.Johan
i mean that all the Iraqi people are against the american existance in Iraq,
and that's why they deal with Iran.


all of them, huh?

Old Post Jun-13-2007 08:12  United States
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M.Johan
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: CAIRO ,EGYPT

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
all of them, huh?

Dude.......,that's what i mean
quote:
Most beneficial for Tehran would be the emergence of a friendly, preferably Shia,Iraqi government, strong enough to keep Iraq together but too weak to pose a military threat. Such a situation in Iraq would provide a security buffer zone for Iran against foreign invasion,and the political dominance of Iraqi Shia would likely deter future US aggression against Iran, as US fortunes in Iraq would depend on Shia cooperation.

There is a clear rationale for Iran to seek to shape developments in Iraq, and although convincing evidence is limited as to whether this includes a military strategy, there are strong indications that elements of the Iranian regime are operating to this end.


___________________
"Politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians."



Charles de Gaulle

Old Post Jun-13-2007 08:16  Egypt
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by M.Johan
Dude.......,that's what i mean


i know what you mean, but i really don't think that applies to Iraqis. far, far from "all of them" anyway.

the real "reality" there MJohan is that the Shia in Iraq haven't lived under a theocracy in almost a century, maybe more. they are quite sure they don't want to live under one any time soon. that pretty much goes for any Shia living outside Iran, and theres many.

Iraqis (Shia, Sunni, Kurd, Christian) don't want a theocracy and have demonstrated as much with their current form of government.

i don't doubt for one second Iran is motivated in that way and is doing whatever they feel they can get away with inside Iraq, but i believe, and Iraqis believe that theirs is the better way of life. the better path for the future. they reinforce that belief every day under my country's "occupation".

...and until their government tells us to leave, you will remain wrong.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jun-13-2007 at 09:39

Old Post Jun-13-2007 09:06  United States
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