I am hoping someone here can enlighten me with the following:

I am using Ableton Live 6.0.10 and an integrated soundcard that came with my PC laptop. The audio drivers register on Ableton as MME/DirectX and Input/Output Device as Sigmatel AudioWave in preferences.

When I render my audio file which is composed of some samples, VSTis, Ableton effects, and SonicMaximizer VST, I set it to 16 bits and 96,000 bps (because its the highest my computer allows me to go before the rendered file comes out sounding really weird and out of tempo).

So I render the file and it doesn't sound as clear (becomes very muddy) nor as loud as when I played it on Ableton. Now, the only conclusions I can come to are:

1. Soundcard is a piece of shit--should I purchase a new/better one?

2. I thought it had something to do with SonicMaximizer, but I did a comparison test between rendered files with and without SonicMaximizer, and they both came out somewhat muddy and softer volume-wise; although, the one with SonicMaximizer was even more screwed up.

I would truly appreciate anyone's technical expertise or insightful opinions. Thank you for your time.

the muddyness could be from sooo many things so thats hard to tell. also sonic maximizer, while can go on the master channel isn't a mastering tool; the reason your mix down is so low is because of frequency dynamics.

you will need to master your track( to some degree) to bring all the levels up to modern day recording levels(loudness war thread)

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0729 the muddyness could be from sooo many things so thats hard to tell. also sonic maximizer, while can go on the master channel isn't a mastering tool; the reason your mix down is so low is because of frequency dynamics. you will need to master your track( to some degree) to bring all the levels up to modern day recording levels(loudness war thread)

I have EQed the track quite a bit and compressed as well. I just use SonicMaximizer on my bass drum and bassline because it makes it sound more pumping. I don't apply it to the master track.

Just to clarify: When I preview my song in Ableton and just listen to it, the sound is much clearer and louder than, when it's finally rendered.

BTW, I do plan on finally mastering the song as a whole in Soundforge, but the muddiness that results from rendering really puts everything I did in Ableton out-of-whack.

Last edited by phantom limb on Sep-21-2007 at 04:39

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb I have EQed the track quite a bit and compressed as well. I just use SonicMaximizer on my bass drum and bassline because it makes it sound more pumping. I don't apply it to the master track. Just to clarify: When I preview my song in Ableton and just listen to it, the sound is much clearer and louder than, when it's finally rendered. BTW, I do plan on finally mastering the song as a whole in Soundforge, but the muddiness that results from rendering really puts everything I did in Ableton out-of-whack.

What you need to do is a proper mix down.

I not 100% of the correctness in what I am about to say, it was told to me by a good friend who has work with Ableton in a studio for some time...

Think of it like this: When Ableton is rendering your audio it is grabbing all the audio from the track and attempting to mash it all together into one neat package. If you haven’t spent the time using EQ to carve out a place in the frequencies spectrum for all your individual instruments, some of them are going to get a little squashed.

After your mix down your track will need some mastering done to sound better when its up against other tracks. You can do this yourself if you know what you are doing or you can send it of to a pro master-er

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does your render clip at all?

quote:

Originally posted by thesuperfunk does your render clip at all?

Yes, the file renders. I can only render up to 16 bits and 96 kbps. Unfortunately, when I try, for example, 24 bits and 192 kbps, it comes out as a 2 second blip that's really high-pitched.

When I do render at 16 bits/96 kbps, compared to my work done while using Ableton, it sounds like there's a sock in the speakers dampening the higher frequency range and the bass levels are exaggerated at the weirdest times. Isn't the final rendered file supposed to be relatively the same sound as when using Ableton? A 16 bit/96 kbps wav file should sound relatively similar, right?

Last edited by phantom limb on Sep-21-2007 at 16:55

quote:

Originally posted by d4dirty What you need to do is a proper mix down. I not 100% of the correctness in what I am about to say, it was told to me by a good friend who has work with Ableton in a studio for some time... Think of it like this: When Ableton is rendering your audio it is grabbing all the audio from the track and attempting to mash it all together into one neat package. If you haven’t spent the time using EQ to carve out a place in the frequencies spectrum for all your individual instruments, some of them are going to get a little squashed. After your mix down your track will need some mastering done to sound better when its up against other tracks. You can do this yourself if you know what you are doing or you can send it of to a pro master-er

I understand your point and I appreciate the analogy. I have tried to EQ my piece well enough that it sounds fairly clear through my sound system. The issue is when I finally render the file it sounds completely different. I'll try posting a sample sometime in the near future, but alas, I will not be able to demonstrate how it sounds in Ableton because the render does render properly. This is a truly irritating dilemma!

quote:

Originally posted by phantom limb Yes, the file renders.

I mean does your render have any clipping in it? ... If you open it up in an audio program you'll be able to tell if the peaks of the wave are clipped or not.

What is the peak value on the master channel when you play the song?

Do you have normalize on or off on the render dialog box?

What happens if you render out to 16/44.1?

For an onboard soundcard, rendering in 16/96 may prove too much... I've had some funny results with a crap external soundblaster for 20$... try 16/44.1.
Anyway, it's better if you can do 24/44.1 than 16/96, trust me. To sample in 192khz is pure waste of cpu & hd, no need to go there.
You probably have some nasty clipping too, but my main bet is that that soundcard of yours doesn't do the job of 96khz rendering well... combined with the clipping - here you go

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quote:

Originally posted by thesuperfunk I mean does your render have any clipping in it? ... If you open it up in an audio program you'll be able to tell if the peaks of the wave are clipped or not.

Very little clipping. I try my best to avoid clipping. It's a music producer's greatest enemy!

quote:

Originally posted by 3F05Q What is the peak value on the master channel when you play the song? Do you have normalize on or off on the render dialog box? What happens if you render out to 16/44.1?

I have the master channel set at -35 decibels. Bear in mind, I tend to not adjust the individual track levels, but just the master level. Albeit, my method is very backwards, but it makes it easier to manipulate one level than 17 others!

Normalize is off. Is normalizing really necessary? When I master the final mix, I just tend to EQ and then proceed to compress.

16/44.1 comes out still sounding muddy. Not as bad as say going to 192 kbps though.