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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)

The Cold War gave neocons their excuse to meddle with East Timor, Grenada, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Iran (1950's), Vietnam, etc. Now that the Soviets are gone, our new enemy is now radical Islam, of which the movement is a direct reaction towards Western policy. At no other time but war is money so easy for the government to obtain, nor for the hundreds of billions, possible trillions, of dollars the Rockefeller-type elite will make from these illegal wars of aggression.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071009/wl_nm/korea_nuclear_dc;_ylt=Ap1Jv53.JilT.8z4oI_Vu6wUewgF

Islamophobia began with end of Cold War, OSCE meeting hears

by Olivier Thibault 38 minutes ago

CORDOBA, Spain (AFP) - Islamophobia gathered pace in the West with the end of the Cold War, long before the September 11, 2001 attacks against the US, participants at a two-day OSCE conference that began in Spain Tuesday said.

"After the end of the Cold War, certain people took Muslims and Islam to be the new scapegoat and enemy," Mustapha Cherif, an expert on Islam at the University of Algiers, told AFP on the sidelines of the gathering.

"But after the senseless act of September 11, this has been amplified," added Cherif, who is known for his commitment to battling religious hatred.

Delegations from the 56 nations that make up the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) are taking part in the conference in the southern Spanish city of Cordoba on the topic of intolerance toward Muslims.

Spain currently holds the rotating presidency of the OSCE, which promotes human rights, democracy and conflict prevention in Europe, North America and Central Asia.

Arab League Secretary-General Amr Mussa told the gathering that after the end of the Cold War, "conservative extremists in certain Western circles" needed to find a new enemy.

"We can't live in stability and security if some are perceived as first class citizens and others second class citizens. This has to disappear," he added.

Studies by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia have found anti-Muslim behaviour and attitudes have risen since 2001, said Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos.

"Without a doubt, international terrorism has fueled this phenomena," added Moratinos who is chairing the gathering.

Muslims in Europe face discrimination when it comes to employment, education and housing, said Ioannis Dimitrakopoulos, the head of research and data collection at the Vienna-based European Fundamental Rights Agency.

"In the area of employment there is evidence that Muslims generally have a higher unemployment rate," he said.

For example in Ireland according to the 2002 census 11 percent of Muslims were unemployed compared to a national average of 4.0 percent, he said.

In Britain the unemployment rate for Muslims, for both men and women, is also higher than that for the general population, especially among those between the ages of 16 and 24, he added.

"In the area of education there is evidence that Muslim pupils tend to have a lower level of education achievement," Dimitrakopoulos added.

The conference will turn its attention Wednesday to possible solutions to the problem of Islamophobia, chiefly in the areas of education and the media.

"The conclusions which will be presented (on Wednesday) will include specific instruments, mechanisms for follow-up and especially a greater sensitization" of the phenomena, said Moratinos.

Cordoba was chosen as the host for the conference as the city, with its eighth century mosque, is a symbolic venue of centuries of coexistence in the Iberian peninsula between Christians, Jews and Muslims.

The city hosted a similar OSCE conference on anti-Semitism in 2005.


___________________

Old Post Oct-09-2007 18:58  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

When Islamists Get Caught, they cry Islamphobia.

please, you can not have a phobia of an ideal.... just cause I do not believe in your myth, does not make it a phobia.....


apologists make me sick

Old Post Oct-10-2007 01:45  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Re: The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
of which the movement is a direct reaction towards Western policy.


this is only half-truth. if you really think the islamists were created solely by the west then you really dont understand what's happening.

tell me, what meddling has india done in the traditional islamic heartland to provoke the levels of terrorism they suffer?

This newly found "its everyone else's fault" mantra you have going reeks of naivete and inexperience. Nobody is ever 100% wrong or right in these situations, and portraying it as such displays a real adolescent bias.


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Old Post Oct-10-2007 01:55  Australia
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

Leftists having nothing left to focus on with there big wins in Vietnam and such, so Islamiphobia will be there next one.
As if there is nothing wrong within the Islamic religion itself while on the other hand, chastising Christianity for their 'extremists'...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Old Post Oct-10-2007 02:00  Canada
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Re: Re: The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
this is only half-truth. if you really think the islamists were created solely by the west then you really dont understand what's happening.

tell me, what meddling has india done in the traditional islamic heartland to provoke the levels of terrorism they suffer?

This newly found "its everyone else's fault" mantra you have going reeks of naivete and inexperience. Nobody is ever 100% wrong or right in these situations, and portraying it as such displays a real adolescent bias.


I BEG to differ!!

India is totally irrelavant to Al-Qaeda and all these jihads. The focus of these groups isn't India, it's the US and Israel. Let's not divert our attention now..

It is their stated purpose that the US should be driven out of muslim lands in "defensive jihad" as they say, and as I've read myself in the koran. No where in the koran have I ever read jihad until the entire world is flying the green arabic scripted flag.

Anyways, my "mantra" is a manifestation of a lot of research into American foreign policy and history as it happened, not as I am told it happened. If you want to be in the grey zone, fine by me, stay on the sidelines, but if you want solutions, you're going to have to pick a side. The side that is for these invasions and interventions, or the side that wants reform. My bias is against the forces that run contradictory to international law and true democracy. I'de hardly call that adolescent bias Mr. Grownup you...


___________________

Old Post Oct-10-2007 02:50  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Re: Re: Re: The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
I BEG to differ!!

India is totally irrelavant to Al-Qaeda and all these jihads. The focus of these groups isn't India, it's the US and Israel. Let's not divert our attention now..


im merely illustrating that islamic terrorism occurs all over the place, well outside your poorly-conceived and overly narrow concepts.

quote:

It is their stated purpose that the US should be driven out of muslim lands in "defensive jihad" as they say, and as I've read myself in the koran. No where in the koran have I ever read jihad until the entire world is flying the green arabic scripted flag.


well, just goes to show that examining contexts with one eye shut isn't very useful doesn't it? the US (or west) is but one enemy in the eyes of the islamists; ever wonder why these groups are outlawed all over the middle east? they attack fellow muslims when they see fit. it is their stated purpose to create strict islamic states all through the mid east or do you just choose to ignore that part of the equation?

there is an excellent doco available. cant remember what its called right now im afraid (ask shaolin z, he's seen it). its in 3 parts, and it catalogues the rise of extreme islam alongside neo conservatism. it will show you very nicely how your understanding of the present conflict is quite unfinished.

quote:

Anyways, my "mantra" is a manifestation of a lot of research into American foreign policy and history as it happened, not as I am told it happened. If you want to be in the grey zone, fine by me, stay on the sidelines, but if you want solutions, you're going to have to pick a side. The side that is for these invasions and interventions, or the side that wants reform. My bias is against the forces that run contradictory to international law and true democracy. I'de hardly call that adolescent bias Mr. Grownup you...


no, your "bias" is that youre only approaching the topic from a single point of view. it is simply incorrect that extreme islam is 100% byproduct of western intervention in the middle east. it is used as a rallying cry, and certainly has a lot of truth. but to argue there would be no islamic terrorism without western interference shows a distinct lack of knowledge or incredible bias.

this is not my opinion, it is fact. scratch the surface of the islamists (ala osama) and there are many more goals than simply the destruction of the great satan.

edit: oh, and trying to find the middle ground between two diametrically opposed viewpoints is how and where solutions and peace are created you fool. but keep up with your partisanship, we know how well that's working out for you guys now!


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Old Post Oct-10-2007 03:44  Australia
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Re: Re: Re: Re: The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
im merely illustrating that islamic terrorism occurs all over the place, well outside your poorly-conceived and overly narrow concepts.


No, you're trying to attribute isolated events to the main movement which is not against India. It is against the US and Israel.

quote:
well, just goes to show that examining contexts with one eye shut isn't very useful doesn't it? the US (or west) is but one enemy in the eyes of the islamists; ever wonder why these groups are outlawed all over the middle east? they attack fellow muslims when they see fit. it is their stated purpose to create strict islamic states all through the mid east or do you just choose to ignore that part of the equation?


I think you're the one with the bloated eyes.. These Islamists blame the US and Israel for supporting their oppressive regimes. Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Somalia, the list goes on. All of them supported by the US. Did you enter that into your short equation?

quote:
there is an excellent doco available. cant remember what its called right now im afraid (ask shaolin z, he's seen it). its in 3 parts, and it catalogues the rise of extreme islam alongside neo conservatism. it will show you very nicely how your understanding of the present conflict is quite unfinished.


Then show me, I really could care less about what you think about my views. Show me some counter-points...

quote:
no, your "bias" is that youre only approaching the topic from a single point of view. it is simply incorrect that extreme islam is 100% byproduct of western intervention in the middle east. it is used as a rallying cry, and certainly has a lot of truth. but to argue there would be no islamic terrorism without western interference shows a distinct lack of knowledge or incredible bias.


I don't think so. And I'de hardly call my view biased. I actually was a Bush supporter, supporter of the Iraq War, a classic neocon. I listened to all the right-wing radio almost everyday. It was when I really did some research and stopped listening to the mainstream media when I realized that according to international law, the US, my country, has been hardly compliant in following it for decades! Who is the one who enables Israel to occupy the Palestinians? Who is the one launching invasions into "muslim lands"? Who is the one supporting the hated regimes of the middle east? Who is the one threatening war in the region? Who's the one with the big weapons? It's not India... There is a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Well, the US system is broken, and needs a fix'n.. I don't get why you neocons get so offended by this simple realization.

quote:
this is not my opinion, it is fact. scratch the surface of the islamists (ala osama) and there are many more goals than simply the destruction of the great satan.


I've more than scratched the surface, I've dug a hole and guess what I found? Dead bodies and a lot of BULLSHIT. I'm sad to say most of it is coming from our side, the side that's supposed to be for freedom. No, the goal is the defeat of the "occupier", the "crusader", etc. Sorry, but India and all these other things you're trying to point to are insignificant events.

quote:
edit: oh, and trying to find the middle ground between two diametrically opposed viewpoints is how and where solutions and peace are created you fool. but keep up with your partisanship, we know how well that's working out for you guys now!


LOL, partisanship? People like you call anyone against wars of aggression from our countries "far left" or "liberal loons". Please...Spare me the bullshit. You say this "diametric viewpoints" crap; give me a break..... If you really believed this, you wouldn't be supporting the neocon agenda which is not to find solutions, but is to obtain and maintain control for commercial interests.


___________________

Old Post Oct-12-2007 01:11  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

well, just goes to show you swallow the islamist party line as easily as you did the GOPs. im not arguing the west hasn't been the cause of much of the current pain. but the region has its own ills that have nothing to do with the US. fatah V hamas being a perfect example.

quote:

The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).

Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. Although "jihadism" is at odds with nearly all Islamic religious thought, it has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.

Al-Wahhab was an 18th-century reformer who claimed that Islam had been corrupted a generation or so after the death of Mohammed. He denounced any theology or customs developed after that as non-Islamic, including more than 1,000 years of religious scholarship. He and his supporters took over what is now Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism remains the dominant school of religious thought.

Sayyid Qutb, a radical Egyptian scholar of the mid-20th century, declared Western civilization the enemy of Islam, denounced leaders of Muslim nations for not following Islam closely enough, and taught that jihad should be undertaken not just to defend Islam, but to purify it.


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism.html

this is just one random site im sure you could find many more if you could be bothered.

the mid east has its own problems above and beyond those created by the US or israel.

quote:

Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.


Since World War II, no state has suffered so cruel a reversal of fortunes as Israel. Admired all the way into the 1970s as the state of “those plucky Jews” who survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a climate hostile to both liberty and greenery, Israel has become the target of creeping delegitimization. The denigration comes in two guises.
The first, the soft version, blames Israel first and most for whatever ails the Middle East, and for having corrupted U.S. foreign policy. It is the standard fare of editorials around the world, not to mention the sheer venom oozing from the pages of the Arab-Islamic press. The more recent hard version zeroes in on Israel’s very existence. According to this dispensation, it is Israel as such, and not its behavior, that lies at the root of troubles in the Middle East. Hence the “statocidal” conclusion that Israel’s birth, midwifed by both the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948, was a grievous mistake, grandiose and worthy as it may have been at the time.

The soft version is familiar enough. One motif is the “wagging the dog” theory. Thus, in the United States, the “Jewish lobby” and a cabal of neoconservatives have bamboozled the Bush administration into a mindless pro-Israel policy inimical to the national interest. This view attributes, as has happened so often in history, too much clout to the Jews. And behind this charge lurks a more general one—that it is somehow antidemocratic for subnational groups to throw themselves into the hurly-burly of politics when it comes to foreign policy. But let us count the ways in which subnational entities battle over the national interest: unions and corporations clamor for tariffs and tax loopholes; nongovernmental organizations agitate for humanitarian intervention; and Cuban Americans keep us from smoking cheroots from the Vuelta Abajo. In previous years, Poles militated in favor of Solidarity, African Americans against Apartheid South Africa, and Latvians against the Soviet Union. In other words, the democratic melee has never stopped at the water’s edge.

Another soft version is the “root-cause” theory in its many variations. Because the “obstinate” and “recalcitrant” Israelis are the main culprits, they must be punished and pushed back for the sake of peace. “Put pressure on Israel”; “cut economic and military aid”; “serve them notice that we will not condone their brutalities”—these have been the boilerplate homilies, indeed the obsessions, of the chattering classes and the foreign-office establishment for decades. Yet, as Sigmund Freud reminded us, obsessions tend to spread. And so there are ever more creative addenda to the well-wrought root-cause theory. Anatol Lieven of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace argues that what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians is a “tremendous obstacle to democratization because it inflames all the worst, most regressive aspects of Arab nationalism and Arab culture.” In other words, the conflict drives the pathology, and not the other way around—which is like the streetfighter explaining to the police:
“It all started when this guy hit back.”

The problem with this root-cause argument is threefold: It blurs, if not reverses, cause and effect. It ignores a myriad of conflicts unrelated to Israel. And it absolves the Arabs of culpability, shifting the blame to you know whom. If one believes former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, the Arab-Islamic quest for weapons of mass destruction, and by extension the war against Iraq, are also Made in Israel. “[A]s long as Israel has nuclear weapons,” Ritter opines, “it has chosen to take a path that is inherently confrontational.…Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent…that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority.”

This theory would be engaging if it did not collide with some inconvenient facts. Iraqis didn’t use their weapons of mass destruction against the Israeli usurper but against fellow Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War, and against fellow Iraqis in the poison-gas attack against Kurds in Halabja in 1988—neither of whom were brandishing any nuclear weapons. As for the Iraqi nuclear program, we now have the “Duelfer Report,” based on the debriefing of Iraqi regime loyalists, which concluded: “Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior-level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.”

Now to the hard version. Ever so subtly, a more baleful tone slips into this narrative: Israel is not merely an unruly neighbor but an unwelcome intruder. Still timidly uttered outside the Arab world, this version’s proponents in the West bestride the stage as truth-sayers who dare to defy taboo. Thus, the British writer A.N. Wilson declares that he has reluctantly come to the conclusion that Israel, through its own actions, has proven it does not have the right to exist. And, following Sept. 11, 2001, Brazilian scholar Jose Arthur Giannotti said: “Let us agree that the history of the Middle East would be entirely different without the State of Israel, which opened a wound between Islam and the West. Can you get rid of Muslim terrorism without getting rid of this wound which is the source of the frustration of potential terrorists?”

The very idea of a Jewish state is an “anachronism,” argues Tony Judt, a professor and director of the Remarque Institute at New York University. It resembles a “late-nineteenth-century separatist project” that has “no place” in this wondrous new world moving toward the teleological perfection of multiethnic and multicultural togetherness bound together by international law. The time has come to “think the unthinkable,” hence, to ditch this Jewish state for a binational one, guaranteed, of course, by international force.

So let us assume that Israel is an anachronism and a historical mistake without which the Arab-Islamic world stretching from Algeria to Egypt, from Syria to Pakistan, would be a far happier place, above all because the original sin, the establishment of Israel, never would have been committed.

Then let’s move from the past to the present, pretending that we could wave a mighty magic wand, and “poof,” Israel disappears from the map.

Civilization of Clashes
Let us start the what-if procession in 1948, when Israel was born in war. Would stillbirth have nipped the Palestinian problem in the bud? Not quite.

Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon marched on Haifa and Tel Aviv not to liberate Palestine, but to grab it. The invasion was a textbook competitive power play by neighboring states intent on acquiring territory for themselves. If they had been victorious, a Palestinian state would not have emerged, and there still would have been plenty of refugees.
(Recall that half the population of Kuwait fled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s “liberation” of that country in 1990.) Indeed, assuming that Palestinian nationalism had awakened when it did in the late 1960s and 1970s, the Palestinians might now be dispatching suicide bombers to Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere.

Let us imagine Israel had disappeared in 1967, instead of occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which were held, respectively, by Jordan’s King Hussein and Egypt’s President Gamal Abdel Nasser. Would they have relinquished their possessions to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and thrown in Haifa and Tel Aviv for good measure? Not likely. The two potentates, enemies in all but name, were united only by their common hatred and fear of Arafat, the founder of Fatah (the Palestine National Liberation Movement) and rightly suspected of plotting against Arab regimes. In short, the “root cause” of Palestinian statelessness would have persisted, even in Israel’s absence.

Let us finally assume, through a thought experiment, that Israel goes “poof” today. How would this development affect the political pathologies of the Middle East? Only those who think the Palestinian issue is at the core of the Middle East conflict would lightly predict a happy career for this most dysfunctional region once Israel vanishes. For there is no such thing as “the” conflict. A quick count reveals five ways in which the region’s fortunes would remain stunted—or worse:

States vs. States: Israel’s elimination from the regional balance would hardly bolster intra-Arab amity. The retraction of the colonial powers, Britain and France, in the mid-20th century left behind a bunch of young Arab states seeking to redraw the map of the region. From the very beginning, Syria laid claim to Lebanon. In 1970, only the Israeli military deterred Damascus from invading Jordan under the pretext of supporting a Palestinian uprising. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Nasser’s Egypt proclaimed itself the avatar of pan-Arabism, intervening in Yemen during the 1960s. Nasser’s successor, President Anwar Sadat, was embroiled in on-and-off clashes with Libya throughout the late 1970s. Syria marched into Lebanon in 1976 and then effectively annexed the country 15 years later, and Iraq launched two wars against fellow Muslim states: Iran in 1980, Kuwait in 1990. The war against Iran was the longest conventional war of the 20th century. None of these conflicts is related to the Israeli-Palestinian one.

Indeed, Israel’s disappearance would only liberate military assets for use in such internal rivalries.

Believers vs. Believers: Those who think that the Middle East conflict is a “Muslim-Jewish thing” had better take a closer look at the score card: 14 years of sectarian bloodshed in Lebanon; Saddam’s campaign of extinction against the Shia in the aftermath of the first Gulf War; Syria’s massacre of 20,000 people in the Muslim Brotherhood stronghold of Hama in 1982; and terrorist violence against Egyptian Christians in the 1990s. Add to this tally intraconfessional oppression, such as in Saudi Arabia, where the fundamentalist Wahhabi sect wields the truncheon of state power to inflict its dour lifestyle on the less devout.

Ideologies vs. Ideologies: Zionism is not the only “ism” in the region, which is rife with competing ideologies. Even though the Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq sprang from the same fascist European roots, both have vied for precedence in the Middle East. Nasser wielded pan-Arabism-cum-socialism against the Arab nation-state. And both Baathists and Nasserites have opposed the monarchies, such as in Jordan. Khomeinist Iran and Wahhabite Saudi Arabia remain mortal enemies. What is the connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Nil, with the exception of Hamas, a terror army of the faithful once supported by Israel as a rival to the Palestine Liberation Organization and now responsible for many suicide bombings in Israel. But will Hamas disband once Israel is gone? Hardly. Hamas has bigger ambitions than eliminating the “Zionist entity.” The organization seeks nothing less than a unified Arab state under a regime of God.

Reactionary Utopia vs. Modernity: A common enmity toward Israel is the only thing that prevents Arab modernizers and traditionalists from tearing their societies apart. Fundamentalists vie against secularists and reformist Muslims for the fusion of mosque and state under the green flag of the Prophet. And a barely concealed class struggle pits a minuscule bourgeoisie and millions of unemployed young men against the power structure, usually a form of statist cronyism that controls the means of production. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains the antagonisms in the world around it.

Regimes vs. Peoples: The existence of Israel cannot explain the breadth and depth of the Mukhabarat states (secret police states) throughout the Middle East. With the exceptions of Jordan, Morocco, and the Gulf sheikdoms, which gingerly practice an enlightened monarchism, all Arab countries (plus Iran and Pakistan) are but variations of despotism—from the dynastic dictatorship of Syria to the authoritarianism of Egypt. Intranational strife in Algeria has killed nearly 100,000, with no letup in sight. Saddam’s victims are said to number 300,000. After the Khomeinists took power in 1979, Iran was embroiled not only in the Iran-Iraq War but also in barely contained civil unrest into the 1980s. Pakistan is an explosion waiting to happen. Ruthless suppression is the price of stability in this region.

Again, it would take a florid imagination to surmise that factoring Israel out of the Middle East equation would produce liberal democracy in the region. It might be plausible to argue that the dialectic of enmity somehow favors dictatorship in “frontline states” such as Egypt and Syria—governments that invoke the proximity of the “Zionist threat” as a pretext to suppress dissent. But how then to explain the mayhem in faraway Algeria, the bizarre cult-of-personality regime in Libya, the pious kleptocracy of Saudi Arabia, the clerical despotism of Iran, or democracy’s enduring failure to take root in Pakistan? Did Israel somehow cause the various putsches that produced the republic of fear in Iraq? If Jordan, the state sharing the longest border with Israel, can experiment with constitutional monarchy, why not Syria?

It won’t do to lay the democracy and development deficits of the Arab world on the doorstep of the Jewish state. Israel is a pretext, not a cause, and therefore its dispatch will not heal the self-inflicted wounds of the Arab-Islamic world. Nor will the mild version of “statocide,” a binational state, do the trick—not in view of the “civilization of clashes” (to borrow a term from British historian Niall Ferguson) that is the hallmark of Arab political culture. The mortal struggle between Israelis and Palestinians would simply shift from the outside to the inside.

My Enemy, Myself

Can anybody proclaim in good conscience that these dysfunctionalities of the Arab world would vanish along with Israel? Two U.N. “Arab Human Development Reports,” written by Arab authors, say no. The calamities are homemade.
Stagnation and hopelessness have three root causes. The first is lack of freedom. The United Nations cites the persistence of absolute autocracies, bogus elections, judiciaries beholden to executives, and constraints on civil society. Freedom of expression and association are also sharply limited. The second root cause is lack of knowledge: Sixty-five million adults are illiterate, and some 10 million children have no schooling at all. As such, the Arab world is dropping ever further behind in scientific research and the development of information technology. Third, female participation in political and economic life is the lowest in the world.
Economic growth will continue to lag as long as the potential of half the population remains largely untapped.

Will all of this right itself when that Judeo-Western insult to Arab pride finally vanishes? Will the millions of unemployed and bored young men, cannon fodder for the terrorists, vanish as well—along with one-party rule, corruption, and closed economies? This notion makes sense only if one cherishes single-cause explanations or, worse, harbors a particular animus against the Jewish state and its refusal to behave like Sweden. (Come to think of it, Sweden would not be Sweden either if it lived in the Hobbesian world of the Middle East.)

Finally, the most popular what-if issue of them all: Would the Islamic world hate the United States less if Israel vanished? Like all what-if queries, this one, too, admits only suggestive evidence. To begin, the notion that 5 million Jews are solely responsible for the rage of 1 billion or so Muslims cannot carry the weight assigned to it. Second, Arab-Islamic hatreds of the United States preceded the conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. Recall the loathing left behind by the U.S.-managed coup that restored the shah’s rule in Tehran in 1953, or the U.S. intervention in Lebanon in 1958. As soon as Britain and France left the Middle East, the United States became the dominant power and the No. 1 target. Another bit of suggestive evidence is that the fiercest (unofficial) anti-Americanism emanates from Washington’s self-styled allies in the Arab Middle East, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is this situation because of Israel—or because it is so convenient for these regimes to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels” (as Shakespeare’s Henry IV putit) to distract their populations from their dependence on the “Great Satan”?

Take the Cairo Declaration against “U.S. hegemony,” endorsed by 400 delegates from across the Middle East and the West in December 2002. The lengthy indictment mentions Palestine only peripherally. The central condemnation, uttered in profuse variation, targets the United States for monopolizing power “within the framework of capitalist globalization,” for reinstating “colonialism,” and for blocking the “emergence of forces that would shift the balance of power toward multi-polarity.” In short, Global America is responsible for all the afflictions of the Arab world, with Israel coming in a distant second.

This familiar tale has an ironic twist: One of the key signers is Nader Fergany, lead author of the 2002 U.N. Arab Human Development Report. So even those who confess to the internal failures of the Arab world end up blaming “the Other.” Given the enormity of the indictment, ditching Israel will not absolve the United States. Iran’s Khomeinists have it right, so to speak, when they denounce America as the “Great Satan” and Israel only as the “Little Satan,” a handmaiden of U.S. power. What really riles America-haters in the Middle East is Washington’s intrusion into their affairs, be it for reasons of oil, terrorism, or weapons of mass destruction. This fact is why Osama bin Laden, having attached himself to the Palestinian cause only as an afterthought, calls the Americans the new crusaders, and the Jews their imperialist stand-ins.

None of this is to argue in favor of Israel’s continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, nor to excuse the cruel hardship it imposes on the Palestinians, which is pernicious, even for Israel’s own soul. But as this analysis suggests, the real source of Arab angst is the West as a palpable symbol of misery and an irresistible target of what noted Middle East scholar Fouad Ajami has called “Arab rage.” The puzzle is why so many Westerners, like those who signed the Cairo Declaration, believe otherwise.

Is this anti-Semitism, as so many Jews are quick to suspect? No, but denying Israel’s legitimacy bears an uncanny resemblance to some central features of this darkest of creeds. Accordingly, the Jews are omnipotent, ubiquitous, and thus responsible for the evils of the world. Today, Israel finds itself in an analogous position, either as handmaiden or manipulator of U.S. might.
The soft version sighs: “If only Israel were more reasonable…” The semihard version demands that “the United States pull the rug out from under Israel” to impose the pliancy that comes from impotence. And the hard-hard version dreams about salvation springing from Israel’s disappearance.

Why, sure—if it weren’t for that old joke from Israel’s War of Independence: While the bullets were whistling overhead and the two Jews in their foxhole were running out of rounds, one griped, “If the Brits had to give us a country not their own, why couldn’t they have given us Switzerland?” Alas, Israel is just a strip of land in the world’s most noxious neighborhood, and the cleanup hasn’t even begun.

Josef Joffe is the publisher of Die Zeit, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, and distinguished fellow at the Institute for International Studies, both at Stanford University.


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Old Post Oct-12-2007 01:32  Australia
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
well, just goes to show you swallow the islamist party line as easily as you did the GOPs. im not arguing the west hasn't been the cause of much of the current pain. but the region has its own ills that have nothing to do with the US. fatah V hamas being a perfect example.



http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism.html

this is just one random site im sure you could find many more if you could be bothered.

the mid east has its own problems above and beyond those created by the US or israel.


Thank you..

But we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe the US and Israel are at the heart of today's problems in the middle east, and that if we withdraw our interventionism, and adhere to massive political and economic reform at home, this world will be a better place. Let the muslims take care of themselves, and let's stop trying to control their destinys. This is why they fight. It is not about democracy, or liberty, and any of that propaganda. This is over commercial interests at the expense of the weak who can't defend themselves (i.e. Iraq).


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Old Post Oct-12-2007 02:00  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Thank you..

But we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe the US and Israel are at the heart of today's problems in the middle east, and that if we withdraw our interventionism, and adhere to massive political and economic reform at home, this world will be a better place. Let the muslims take care of themselves, and let's stop trying to control their destinys. This is why they fight. It is not about democracy, or liberty, and any of that propaganda. This is over commercial interests at the expense of the weak who can't defend themselves (i.e. Iraq).


oh, and i agree. i just think you will find these actors turning on each other once the galvanising influence of the US is gone. and as far as israel is concerned, we both know its not going anywhere.


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Old Post Oct-12-2007 02:06  Australia
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > The New Conservative Enemy (Islam)
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