I think it's obvious by now that people by enlarge are superficial and don't really have any principles as this isn't even issues to most people. Eigther that, and / or they're completely subservient to the state. The irony is that they think / tell themselves they're free. I learned this the hard way, by realizing people simply don't want to know, don't care, or it doesn't bother them enough to take action.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I think it's obvious by now that people by enlarge are superficial and don't really have any principles as this isn't even issues to most people. Eigther that, and / or they're completely subservient to the state. The irony is that they think / tell themselves they're free. I learned this the hard way, by realizing people simply don't want to know, don't care, or it doesn't bother them enough to take action.

By and large?



I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you talking about why most Americans don't seemed to be outraged/concerned by what was allowed to happen there? Or are you talking about individual soldiers there?

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis By and large? I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you talking about why most Americans don't seemed to be outraged/concerned by what was allowed to happen there? Or are you talking about individual soldiers there?

I mean people in general, not necessarily belonging to any state or the military. But it's certainly more relevant to any decadent society or culture, and post modern culture would definetly fall in that category. So yes, it does apply to citizens of this counntry in general. The level of ignorance in face of the wealth of information accessible to most people, and it's importance and relevance to any decent human being, should tell you something in contrast to the shallow dull activites primarily and almost exclusively engaged in, which pretty much defines their lifestyle. I only expect it to get worse, as there's isn't really a well defined floor for the base social denominator. It's a generalization of course, but you have to talk in generalized terms if you're trying to cover a broad topic in limited space. Obviously, that's not everyone, but most people, yes... and I'd say an overwhelming majority.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Well the best thing you can do is increase awareness. Talk to people, push your ideas out there, keep them at the forefront.

I find it interesting to compare the testimonials of the soldiers there found in the New Yorker article, to a news article on the subject from Foxnews during the investigation:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119808,00.html

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Well the best thing you can do is increase awareness. Talk to people, push your ideas out there, keep them at the forefront. I find it interesting to compare the testimonials of the soldiers there found in the New Yorker article, to a news article on the subject from Foxnews during the investigation: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119808,00.html

Been there, done that. Now I'm disillusioned with it, since not many people seem to care. It's sad, but I learned it the hard way... and have become somewhat nihilistic in my world view ever since . Here's one example:

tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops...

Amongst several others. It's mostly silence followed by denail. And apparently the more I move out of mainstream political discourse, the more "radical" or "crazier" I become in the eyes of the majority, even old school PDD colleagues, aquantinces, and friends. My curiosity and desire for increasing my awareness and understanding takes me there, but apparently the less indoctrinated I become, the more of a "nut" I am. At this point, there's several subject I can't even talk about since it completely pointless, and judeging by the reaction to far less disturbing subjects (relatively speaking), it only reinforces my pesimism, not that I'm pesimistic by nature or anything... quite the contrary. I mostly browse this forum now just to stay in touch with popular opinion, and have given up on my hopeless 'quest' for lack of a better term. Sometimes I can't refrain from posting, but it would probably be a better idea if I did... I'd save myself a lot of time, and would probably be a happier person. Anyways, nevermind my ramblings ... I guess it's a good thing that some people care enough to bring up the subject, even if the thread goes largely ignored. As you can tell, I'm pretty jaded.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Been there, done that. Now I'm disillusioned with it, since not many people seem to care. It's sad, but I learned it the hard way... and have become somewhat nihilistic in my world view ever since . Here's one example: tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops... Amongst several others. It's mostly silence followed by denail. And apparently the more I move out of mainstream political discourse, the more "radical" or "crazier" I become in the eyes of the majority, even old school PDD colleagues, aquantinces, and friends. My curiosity and desire for increasing my awareness and understanding takes me there, but apparently the less indoctrinated I become, the more of a "nut" I am. At this point, there's several subject I can't even talk about since it completely pointless, and judeging by the reaction to far less disturbing subjects (relatively speaking), it only reinforces my pesimism, not that I'm pesimistic by nature or anything... quite the contrary. I mostly browse this forum now just to stay in touch with popular opinion, and have given up on my hopeless 'quest' for lack of a better term. Sometimes I can't refrain from posting, but it would probably be a better idea if I did... I'd save myself a lot of time, and would probably be a happier person. Anyways, nevermind my ramblings ... I guess it's a good thing that some people care enough to bring up the subject, even if the thread goes largely ignored. As you can tell, I'm pretty jaded.

Speaking for myself, I think the negative responses you receive are less a result of your ideas or what you say, but more a reaction to how you say it.

The main problem on this sub-forum is that most people confuse having a different opinion as not even having ever critically considered an issue, when in fact, that person may have spent an equal amount of time and thought on the issue but simply been convinced by a different argument. Accusing anyone with a different opinion of being naive, "sheepish", or stupid is completely counterproductive.

As to the issue at hand - the desensitization toward Iraqi and Afghan citizens in the American military continues to astound me. In order to do some of the things that have been done at Abu Ghraib, the perpetrator would really have to view the victim as something less than human.

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Last edited by Lebezniatnikov on Mar-21-2008 at 20:16

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov As to the issue at hand - the desensitization toward Iraqi and Afghan citizens in the American military continues to astound me. In order to do some of the things that have been done at Abu Ghraib, the perpetrator would really have to view the victim as something less than human.

Read the article brau, I drew different conclusions from it.

It's not as simple as losing your morals while in a combat field. The mechanisms behind how that happens are also very important, and the SOP (or lack, therof) of the US Military is basically what led to these happenings.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

WOW.

I just don't even know what to say anymore.