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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasília, Brazil

quote:
Originally posted by Lilith
Hey you, is ebonics a version of pidgin english or is it just stuff americans do because they're cretins?
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
If, as the COR's second most qualified linguist, I may be forgiven for mansplaining... In linguistic terms, a "pidgin" is a simplified language developed by two groups who regularly interact but don't share a common tongue. Historically, this generally meant trade situations. When a pidgin language is learned from birth as a first tongue it becomes a "creole" language.

Technically speaking, ebonics is more of a dialect than either of these things, as it's just a variant of standard American English. However, I imagine a lot of the linguistic features of the dialect can be traced right back to times of slavery, so it's a dialect that arguably has its roots in a creole.

Pretty much what Sys said in the first paragraph, and what he said in the second paragraph is one of the traditional hypotheses regarding its origins. However, linguists who study ebonics (which I'll call African American Vernacular English, or AAVE) nowadays point out that it's most likely a hybrid of old English dialects from Great Britain (don't take my word for it here's an expert talking about it) - and it's great Jack joined the debate because he's a local

You see, there doesn't seem to be much influence from West African languages in AAVE grammar, except for the odd loanword. Also, the structures they use are not what you'd expect from a creole: There's some morphology (i.e. those bits you add to the end of words, like "work", "work-ing" and "work-ed") and that's really the first thing to go once a language undergoes a creolisation process (in Hawaiian English, instead of saying "I worked", you'd say "I wen work"). Also, the constructions are a bit too sophisticated for adult speakers to master (mind Jack's description of what a pidgin is). "I no know" and "I never know" for "I don't know" (notice they're very simple negations) are constructions you'd expect from a pidgin, whereas "I ain't know" is not only possible, but also shows this construction must've copme from someone who had a considerable grasp of English - "ain't" is hardly among the first words a learner will pick up.

What must've happened is that those who worked with the slaves came from regions and social strata different than those who were working in the industrial North, thus creating a divide. African Americans mastered one variety of English, Euro Americans learned yet another. Segregation was so intense that the two varieties coexist to this very day, even if the varieties that gave rise to AAVE may have died out in the British Isles.

To some extent, the same happened to the variety of Portuguese I speak. I can clearly talk to someone from Portugal in Portuguese, but there are quite a few grammatical constructions that exist in Europe but are a lot more common here (e.g. Europeans in general say "We are", whereas Brazilians are much more likely to say "The people is" with the very same meaning; Europeans say "I saw her", we say "I saw she", and so on).

I should also note I'm an expert on Asian languages/language types, not necessarily African American English, so I may have forgotten/distorted a few things


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 19:39  Brazil
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Lews
Platipus And Prog Addict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Hugging Whales And Saving Trees

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
Segregation was so intense that the two varieties coexist to this very day, even if the varieties that gave rise to AAVE may have died out in the British Isles.


Well, also that segregation remains so intense, to this very day; not to mention the peer-pressure in some/many African American communities to avoid seeming too 'white' or stuck-up.


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 19:45 
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Meat187
Diese scheiß Katze



Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The Night's Plutonian Shore
Meat187

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...1309&forumid=73


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 20:17  Germany
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Trance-M
Since 1994 tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Limburg, Netherlands
Re: Meat187

quote:
Originally posted by Meat187
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...1309&forumid=73



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Old Post Dec-03-2014 20:45  Netherlands
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasília, Brazil



It turned out awesome, I'm glad you mixed my ch00nage after my favourite Hanoi Team track
quote:
Originally posted by Lews
Well, also that segregation remains so intense, to this very day; not to mention the peer-pressure in some/many African American communities to avoid seeming too 'white' or stuck-up.

And that's what strikes me as bizarre: We've got our very own strand of racism in Brazil, but miscegenation is the norm here, so even though there are sociolects (and the darker the colour of your skin, even if you're mostly European Brazilian, the more likely you are to be at the base of the pyramid and speak like those with same social status), I can't think of anything similar here.

What's worse, we don't really know how to tackle this problem, and more and more we've been using your strategies, which I'm not sure is the best approach.


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 21:01  Brazil
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Lews
Platipus And Prog Addict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Hugging Whales And Saving Trees

To be fair, has anyone had much success tackling this issue?


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 21:48 
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasília, Brazil

True that


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Old Post Dec-03-2014 21:55  Brazil
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Vector A
Your petrochemical arms



Registered: Apr 2011
Location: U.S.

quote:
Originally posted by Dykes_on_Jay
Toi pas aimer mon patois?

Nou met son bambou dans le twou a citwon.

Masisi sal.

Old Post Dec-04-2014 00:45  United States
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Lagrangian
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How dare you? stop putting religion in my science.


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Old Post Dec-04-2014 18:46  Norway
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Intellekshual
tranceaddict in training



Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Oubliette

Why do people say "excuse my French" when they curse? I never understood it, the French aren't particularly vulgar. They should say "excuse my Italian".


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Old Post Dec-04-2014 22:03  United States
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Silky Johnson
International Playa Hater



Registered: Nov 2003
Location:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_my_French

Old Post Dec-04-2014 22:10 
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Technically speaking, ebonics is more of a dialect than either of these things, as it's just a variant of standard American English. However, I imagine a lot of the linguistic features of the dialect can be traced right back to times of slavery, so it's a dialect that arguably has its roots in a creole.


That's kind of interesting as when I travelled and lived in east Africa there was a lot of kids that had grown up with sort of a Pigeon-English (or a Creole as you call it) of some sort from their parents or picked up some English from a minimal formal education or media. But it was very understandable from my perspective even with a 'back to front sentence structure' and mostly because they didn't mix it in with slang- which is where I got lost watching youtube on the subject.

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
Pretty much what Sys said in the first paragraph, and what he said in the second paragraph is one of the traditional hypotheses regarding its origins. However, linguists who study ebonics (which I'll call African American Vernacular English, or AAVE) nowadays point out that it's most likely a hybrid of old English dialects from Great Britain (don't take my word for it here's an expert talking about it) - and it's great Jack joined the debate because he's a local


If you're interested in old-english, large parts of India still formally learn it in schools, it literally dates back to the 18th to late 19th century in both sentence structure and words we'd consider anachronistic or have fallen completely out of use in modern english.
For example, you might get asked to 'please help Lilith understand' in modern english would be phrased 'please do the needful for Lilith to understand'

Anyway, have a fun christmas you two.

Old Post Dec-04-2014 23:20 
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TranceAddict Forums > Main Forums > Chill Out Room > Random, non-adhesive, won't stick damn it, thread of randomness
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