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planetaryplayer
Surpeme traineanddict
Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Pine Tree Valley
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that was a roller coaster of a match
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Dec-18-2022 18:17
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
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Dec-19-2022 10:15
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Lews
Platipus And Prog Addict
Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Hugging Whales And Saving Trees
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Dec-19-2022 13:45
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict
Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasília, Brazil
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I've just seen the highlights of the games I missed because of the time zone. What the hell happened between the Netherlands and Argentina? I had to watch it on mute because I was on the treadmill, but it seems a Dutchman nearly got killed and all hell broke loose
quote: | Originally posted by Lews
I really didn't want either team to win, but I greatly enjoyed the Messi vs Mbappé battle royale. |
Pretty much this, yeah. On the one hand, Mbappé really got us a bit irked in South America when he said we could no longer win: the fact that it's now UEFA 12 x 10 CONMEBOL, despite there being twice or three times as many slots for European countries (depends on who wins the inter=confederation playoffs), shows the competition is still pretty tight. On the other, he really was the best man on the pitch, even if Argentina were the better team overall, so by the end I was in awe by all he had achieved.
Besides, I've grown tired of all the Messi Stans and their GOAT talk. Had the penalties gone slightly different and Messi's and Mbappé's team mates achieved the exact opposite result, all else being equal, we'd now be saying Mbappé was the new Pelé or le Goaté.
Lionel is extraordinary, there's no disputing that. The greatest of all time, like, ever? Now that's overselling it a bit.
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Dec-19-2022 18:43
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planetaryplayer
Surpeme traineanddict
Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Pine Tree Valley
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Watching, I thought Lloris could have done better during the penalties. The first three kicks were not taken very well.
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Dec-19-2022 20:48
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.
Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
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quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Besides, I've grown tired of all the Messi Stans and their GOAT talk. Had the penalties gone slightly different and Messi's and Mbappé's team mates achieved the exact opposite result, all else being equal, we'd now be saying Mbappé was the new Pelé or le Goaté.
Lionel is extraordinary, there's no disputing that. The greatest of all time, like, ever? Now that's overselling it a bit. |
A Brazilian refusing to admit Argentina have history's greatest player? Well, I never.
In all seriousness, this "GOAT" debate (and for the record, fuck the horrible Americanism that is "GOAT" - I'm sure it only started getting widely used around 2017 to describe Messi and Ronaldo) is fundamentally unanswerable because football has evolved so much. In Pele's day there were no substitutions and no red or yellow cards. Much harder tackles were allowed and attacking players were less protected. The balls were made out of heavy leather. The players were physically smaller because of differing nutritional standards, which particularly affected goalkeepers. Tactics, sports science, pitch conditions... everything was primitive compared to modern standards. It is generally agreed that you can only discuss the greatest players of certain eras, and anything beyond that is just pub debate.
So what can be discussed is whether Messi is the greatest of this era. Over the last 15 years or so the battle between Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo for supremacy has swung back and forth more times than I can remember. Between 2009 and 2013 it seemed Messi was the clear winner, as he won more trophies, scored more goals and hoovered up the personal awards. Then, once Barcelona re-elected Bartomeu and their recruitment policy went to complete shit, they stopped being competitive in the Champions League at the exact moment when Ronaldo was spearheading Real Madrid to 4 CL trophies in five seasons. Ronaldo had lost a lot of his incredible pace and mobility and become more and more of a classic centre-forward, but his big game influence was incredible, while it became a familiar sight to see Messi wandering the pitch in despair as Barcelona suffered another horrific European collapse. Ronaldo's European Championship glory with Portugal in 2016 seemed to compound his winning influence, whereas Argentina captained by Messi fell agonisingly short again and again in finals.
Then Ronaldo left Madrid and suddenly he stopped appearing in the latter stages of the biggest club competition as well, and it felt like the two were entering the end game of their careers with incredibly similar records and without the issue ever being decided. Messi left Barcelona and finally won the Copa America with Argentina whilst simultaneously having the worst season of his career with PSG. Did that prove anything one way or another?
I've always thought Messi was by far the more naturally talented footballer, but Ronaldo often seemed the fiercer competitor, more likely to go down snarling and fighting when Messi could sometimes look like a lost little boy during those European maulings. What this World Cup has proven is that Messi is a leader, is a fighter, and can win the biggest trophies even in a relatively average team through his sheer genius. He scored in every single game bar one and laid on some absurd assists. He's answered the specific questions some people had about him as a player. For me, the debate is over now. Ronaldo isn't going to win the World Cup, or another Ballon D'or or a Champions League. Messi has achieved more at a younger age and kept pace with Ronaldo's absurd scoring rate. He's the best of the modern era, there can be no doubt. Now it's over to the likes of Kylian Mbappe and Erling Haaland to fight it out for the next 15 years.
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Dec-19-2022 23:16
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