I'm going to be starting a CS (or possibly software engineering) degree next semester (I'm currently doing some programming in the course I'm in atm though as well). I know the real learning for programming involves either real experience or the tinkering you do outside of uni/college but I still want to do it anyway. It's necassary for some jobs, yes you can get a job without a degree but there are plenty of people that only hire people with degrees.

I also fundamentally do want to learn and college based learning is something I actually enjoy. It's a bit weird working through begineer/intermediate java (or whatever language) books and then finishing them. I know I've finished them and that's all well and good but it just doesn't feel like a level of something that you can compare to anything else. So far I've done medium to hard stuff in my spare time (challenging myself) and done somewhat easy stuff in my course. Despite that though I still feel far better when I've done all the work for my course. I know it's an actual qualification and it's nice to have achieved that even though I know that's not do with my real skill level. Anyway, point is I feel like while tinkering is good/important in my spare time that academic style learning is useful to me as well. No doubt it's similar with many other people.

Also, one thing that's certainly the case with programming is that there's a wide variety of skill levels. You're far more likely to not have a life if you're not very good at it. The final thing is that I'm gonna be working for 40+ years probably so any learning that's better to do in industry I will get to eventually anyway. For the chance of a big boost to my employability initially and overall I think spending 3-4 years of my life in decent degree is a good idea.

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Well yea, agreed, if you didn't start when you are 10-12 then you need to go to college for it. If it something you realized you wanted to do later in life then college is of course a benefit.

If you come out of high school though already knowing 90% of what an undergraduate degree would teach you it's probably better to start looking for work right out of HS and keep going doing that because you'll be a 22-24 year old with 4-6 years experience working in the real world where as a graduate is going to have no experience and be the same age.

And yea, learning never stops in any programming job. I think a lot of programmers get out of college and go "well done!" and then they try and get a job and if they aren't successful right off the bat they'll quickly be done for good. If programming to them is just a marketable skill and not a passion they might start to lose their value as a worker because coming out of school you are already at a disadvantage in terms of new skills and current practices because the academic environment is often far too slow to adapt to the industry.


I don't know. I have been programming for close to 20 years now, and even I get sick of it sometimes, and working a programming job is usually pretty shit. It is highly skilled labor, but it isn't creative really for the most part. You'll code monkey for a long time, and if you aren't a creative person that is able to demonstrate your ability to innovate you'll probably just be a code monkey for your entire career (and it'll be a much shorter one, if you aren't working in management by the time you are in your late 30s then you can forget about it).

Sorta rambling, but my advice is if you don't feel a real passion for programming then think about other options along the way, if you are doing it in school and going "this sucks" for any other reason than already knowing more than the professors then you probably should think about changing degrees.

Also as far as places that require a degree, those are usually the places that suck to work at. The big places, where you'll start out making 60-80k a year but you'll hate your life, you'll be working 60-70 hours a week, with no over time pay (especially if you get a job in WA or CA).

The places that lack the need for huge bureaucracy in something like an HR department are the fun places to work. The 20-100 employee places, where hiring is done by your manager. You might not make as much right off the bat, and the hours are probably going to be just as bad in a lot of cases, but you are going to be allowed to be more creative just by the size of the business alone.

Yeh no doubt, and I'll be looking into the differences between working for major companies and small businesses more when I'm closer to that stage of my career. With that said though, I have heard that there's some seriously braindead HR people around who do highly value that over actual skills. For instance a friend of a friend of mine said how she's been in charge of hiring 100s of people before for companies but she can't get a job at microsoft or ibm because she doesn't have a degree. Even if I end up working for small/medium businesses the majority of the time there still may be times when I want/need to work for companies that value that, maybe a new server system has been devised and I want to have on my resume that I've managed large numbers of machines. Regardless, it's only ~10% of my adult years and if I have that and I'm good then there won't be anything to hold me back, wheras if i don't have a degree it'll be something I'll always have to keep in mind.

I do also really like programming, although unfortunately i didn't really start when I was 12. That doesn't mean I don't really like it though. Thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind. I just thought it'd be relevent to share my situation and my thoughts on CS degrees. I honestly expect it to be pretty fun.

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quote:

Originally posted by Psyshell Unfortunately i didn't really start when I was 12. That doesn't mean I don't really like it though.

Don't be encouraged by starting late. If you can grasp the most basic stuff about programming quickly, it's highly likely you'll be better off choosing the topics you learn and actually learning them by your own than by going to school, but it's your choice. If you can find a sort of mentor who has time for you, you're better set than going to school in my opinion. Just remember to read and work a lot on your spare time. That's what you'll be doing for the rest of your working life if you choose to work in programming anyway. Then again, if you feel more confident with someone actually teaching you stuff, school just might be the thing for you.

At least for me school didn't really do all that much considering programming / anything CS, since most of the courses, in the end, are just a scratch on the surface of the subject, and you're still left to study most of the stuff on your own (although it wasn't actually a CS degree for me). But I got a lot of contacts there, scored my current job there (backend dev. and db design), and met the people I started my company with there.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby And yea, learning never stops in any programming job.

Much like many other jobs, yes. It might sound like a huge load of shit, but at least for me, probably the best part of working a programming job is that I (at least think that I) learn new stuff daily at my job. I very rarely go to work and think "this shit again". If it's like that, it's probably about refactoring something really stupid I did earlier (but I have to admit, I think I even kind of like that too). And of course it depends on what kind of programming job you have..

Last edited by JEO on Jun-24-2014 at 10:27

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby The big places, where you'll start out making 60-80k a year but you'll hate your life, you'll be working 60-70 hours a week, with no over time pay (especially if you get a job in WA or CA).

Hm, maybe 10 years ago.

In any case, isn't University more or less free in Aus? Or at least severely discounted? I agree I cannot really advise someone to go 120k into debt before they're 21 in the US- especially when it comes to something like CS that you can really get a grasp for with sufficient reading and a lot of didactic writing. But like with any degree, the amount of interest and enthusiasm you sink into it while you are in school can make all the difference. If you don't have so much to lose save for the opportunity cost of 4 years work experience (not inconsiderable at all, just weigh your options), then definitely don't write University off. Though because of the nature of CS, you're better off seeking individual certifications at some point, rather than a mere Baccalaureate.

We snatch up programmers fresh out of school all the time- dudes who were able to do local government and even military simulation internships through their respective colleges. That's important - that's cool stuff we can put to use, and made possible by their educations.

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quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Also as far as places that require a degree, those are usually the places that suck to work at. The big places, where you'll start out making 60-80k a year but you'll hate your life, you'll be working 60-70 hours a week, with no over time pay (especially if you get a job in WA or CA). The places that lack the need for huge bureaucracy in something like an HR department are the fun places to work. The 20-100 employee places, where hiring is done by your manager. You might not make as much right off the bat, and the hours are probably going to be just as bad in a lot of cases, but you are going to be allowed to be more creative just by the size of the business alone.

I really trust your judgement on this.

Nou, please tell me all about how jobs and the job market work. Tell me all the things about it I just never knew and don't know. *folds hands and waits with bated breath*

.

Last edited by Silky Johnson on Oct-04-2018 at 21:12

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