quote:

Originally posted by Zoso This link provides some insights: https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-...by-atmos-sound/ Essentially you can tell a device that the sound is encapsulated in an Atmos "container" but not really include/support all the true meta data features of Atmos as it would be on a UHD BD disc, for example. And I think it can vary by both streaming service and device. I generally prefer UHD BD on my Sony X800-M2 if I can get it, but I admit that I do watch more streaming than I used to, simply for convenience. With my current sound bar, I can't even take advantage of Atmos, so I'm more inclined to enjoy Dolby Vision material, as my display and UHD BD player support it.

Thanks

Next question (old as the hills)
"Audio cables - snake oil? Or worth investing in?"

Thinking of SARSEN by the Chord Company. But read tons of things online saying it's all snake oil...

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Older article but still relevant:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...-no-difference/

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ Thanks for the replies. My housemaker has thrown in 5 JBL ceiling speakers for free, so I've decided to go for an Atmos setup Amp: Denon AVR-X6700H Floor speakers: DALI Oberon 9 Sub-woofer: DALI SUB E-9 F Middle speaker: DALI OBERON VOKAL Rear wall: DALI Oberon Onwall Cable The Chord Company SARSEN SPEAKERCABLE (for Atmos, 'cos I need 80m and it ain't gonna be cheap) I may get something fancier for the floor speakers, though For regular music, I'm just gonna use my old Denon cd player.

Denon is a good choice as they have the best SInad out of the mid range receivers. As for the Dali, the Oberons are their entry level so you don’t get what Dali is most known for, their ribbon tweeters. They are also 4 ohms that probably dip lower so they may be somewhat hard on the onboard denon amps. There are many other speakers in that price range and you are probably not getting your best bang for your buck with Dali. If you were looking at Dali Opticons we would be having a different conversation. For the sub I would stay away from Dali, that’s not their specialty and it will be decent/good for music and probably not so good for home theater. Look at HSU Research, Rythmik, or SVS for subs.

MizzzZz

quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno Denon is a good choice as they have the best SInad out of the mid range receivers. As for the Dali, the Oberons are their entry level so you don’t get what Dali is most known for, their ribbon tweeters. They are also 4 ohms that probably dip lower so they may be somewhat hard on the onboard denon amps. There are many other speakers in that price range and you are probably not getting your best bang for your buck with Dali. If you were looking at Dali Opticons we would be having a different conversation. For the sub I would stay away from Dali, that’s not their specialty and it will be decent/good for music and probably not so good for home theater. Look at HSU Research, Rythmik, or SVS for subs. MizzzZz

Thanks for this.

The Oberon were actually entry level + 1 up. I switched the subwoofer and the onwall to below setup

DALI Oberon 9
DALI SUB E 12N (subwoofer)
DALI Oberon VOKAL
DALI Oberon 3 (rear speakers)

I also need to confine it to brands I can find in Japan, too. Big names are available.
I do have the luxury of time, but I am intrigued about what you say about essentially mixing brands? I was under the impression iut's best to keep the brands the same as much as possible, as they're 'designed' to work better together?

Or are you saying it'd be fine to completely mix and match speaker types / brands?

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Dali is a high end speaker manufacturer that has moved down market (due to the deteriorating condition of high end audio). They make their own drivers which is indicative of their capabilities. To answer your question regarding mixing brands, I’d say that it’s most important to maintain brands across your LCR as that’s where most of the vocals will emanate from and you want timbre to be matched. Surrounds less so, due to the nature of their primary role (rear fill/ sound effects). I wouldn’t worry about atmos surround channels matching in say, the ceiling. With subs it’s almost certainly not necessary, unless you are trying to integrate Martin Logan electrostats or Magnepan Maneplanars, in that case more care is necessary. Remember your sub is meant to reproduce tones from 120~15Hz. Dali cannot compete with the big boys such as SVS, HSU research, or JL audio, that’s their specialty and they can go low at high SPL. The better subwoofers have the capability to integrate with almost any conventional acoustic suspension or vented box speakers. I also didn’t mention aesthetics or the commonly used WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor)as I’m not sure you need to worry about that or if you have a preference. Trust me on cables, don’t waste your money, there are basically two kinds of cable line level (RCA) and amplifier. All RCA’s are coaxial, you don’t have to spend an arm and a leg on them, buy a good quality shielded cable for your subwoofer though as subwoofer frequency is right in the same range as your power outlet (50/60Hz). If anything put your money into a better sub or external amplifiers, although those Dalis are relatively efficient at 90db/m/watt. Amplifier wire is nothing special, and what really matters is ohms law, remember the greater the length the more resistance and less power that is transferred, stay with 12 gauge for the LCR and 14 gauge for everything else.





Mizzuno

quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno Dali is a high end speaker manufacturer that has moved down market (due to the deteriorating condition of high end audio). They make their own drivers which is indicative of their capabilities. To answer your question regarding mixing brands, I’d say that it’s most important to maintain brands across your LCR as that’s where most of the vocals will emanate from and you want timbre to be matched. Surrounds less so, due to the nature of their primary role (rear fill/ sound effects). I wouldn’t worry about atmos surround channels matching in say, the ceiling. With subs it’s almost certainly not necessary, unless you are trying to integrate Martin Logan electrostats or Magnepan Maneplanars, in that case more care is necessary. Remember your sub is meant to reproduce tones from 120~15Hz. Dali cannot compete with the big boys such as SVS, HSU research, or JL audio, that’s their specialty and they can go low at high SPL. The better subwoofers have the capability to integrate with almost any conventional acoustic suspension or vented box speakers. I also didn’t mention aesthetics or the commonly used WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor)as I’m not sure you need to worry about that or if you have a preference. Trust me on cables, don’t waste your money, there are basically two kinds of cable line level (RCA) and amplifier. All RCA’s are coaxial, you don’t have to spend an arm and a leg on them, buy a good quality shielded cable for your subwoofer though as subwoofer frequency is right in the same range as your power outlet (50/60Hz). If anything put your money into a better sub or external amplifiers, although those Dalis are relatively efficient at 90db/m/watt. Amplifier wire is nothing special, and what really matters is ohms law, remember the greater the length the more resistance and less power that is transferred, stay with 12 gauge for the LCR and 14 gauge for everything else. Mizzuno

Thanks for this reply - great stuff.

I went to an Electronics store today and listened to the Oberon vs Rubicon.
The Oberon 3-cone that I was looking at is absolutely enormous.

They had the full DALI range so I was asking them to flick nback and forth between speakers and I took a listen to the Opticon 6 MK2 and honestly, there was not much difference (for me) with these (2-cone), and the 3-cone speakers (both Oberon and Opticon). Yes, there was some more 'clout' in the base, but it didn't really affect the 'punch' as much as I thought it would. Combined with a decent subwoofer, I am now thinking this will be more than enough for a home theatre or music playing setup.

I will look for a decent subwoofer. I saw the DALI SUB E 12N and it looked OK to me. I didn't get a chance to listen to it, but spec-wise, / on-paper, it seemed to match up with a lot of others in the same price category...

EDIT: WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) <-- I'm stealing that!

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

The rubicon has the hybrid ribbon tweeter, so you’re gonna get extended highs, bring source material to listen to so you can compare. Bring some high quality tracks with various amounts of bass midrange and highs and see which ones sound better to your ear, remember this is a largely subjective industry.See if you hear the difference. The only down side to the rubicon is less sensitivity 88.5db vs 90.5 for the Oberon, doesn’t look like much of a difference but every 3 db is double the loudness. So your first watt watt will produce 88.5 db vs 90.5 db. The denon will put out 140 watts with 2 channels driven, it will be much less the more channels you drive. You may want to go with the smaller rubicon over a larger opticon.

Don’t worry about how many cones the speaker has, worry more about if it’s an 2 way vs 3 way crossover. Remember you will be crossing the main speakers over to the sub so you’re not gonna need the extra woofers for low end extension. The issue with the Dali sub is it’s woefully under powered and if you’re using it for movies you’re just not gonna get the visceral thump you would get from say an SVS sb-2000 pro and certainly not a pb2000 pro.

As I said nothing against Dali, they are quality, it’s just that their focus was never on home theater it was on two channel listening and at that they excel.

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb...=31456365969517

Btw if you have access to Canton or Martin Logan, or Paradigm I would seriously compare them as they are all high quality. Also crutchfield in the US is a good site for comments and or comparisons.

https://www.crutchfield.com/m_11999/Home-Speakers.html


https://www.martinlogan.com/en/


https://www.paradigm.com/en/


https://www.canton.us/

mizzzz

quote:

Originally posted by mizzuno The rubicon has the hybrid ribbon tweeter, so you’re gonna get extended highs, bring source material to listen to so you can compare. Bring some high quality tracks with various amounts of bass midrange and highs and see which ones sound better to your ear, remember this is a largely subjective industry.See if you hear the difference. The only down side to the rubicon is less sensitivity 88.5db vs 90.5 for the Oberon, doesn’t look like much of a difference but every 3 db is double the loudness. So your first watt watt will produce 88.5 db vs 90.5 db. The denon will put out 140 watts with 2 channels driven, it will be much less the more channels you drive. You may want to go with the smaller rubicon over a larger opticon. Don’t worry about how many cones the speaker has, worry more about if it’s an 2 way vs 3 way crossover. Remember you will be crossing the main speakers over to the sub so you’re not gonna need the extra woofers for low end extension. The issue with the Dali sub is it’s woefully under powered and if you’re using it for movies you’re just not gonna get the visceral thump you would get from say an SVS sb-2000 pro and certainly not a pb2000 pro. As I said nothing against Dali, they are quality, it’s just that their focus was never on home theater it was on two channel listening and at that they excel. https://www.svsound.com/products/sb...=31456365969517

Again, thank you!
I think the next time I go back I will definitely bring some source material. My go-to track is always Schiller - Das Glockenspiel (Schill out mix) which has a massive bass kick at the beginning.

I think I may take a look at the Rubicon. They seem to be raved about everywhere, and everyone comments how the price jump is 'totally worth it'. But as you say, it's 'subjective' and you like what you like, right?

Noted on the sub-woofers. I will look around. What exactly should I be looking at, beisdes frequency and impedence?

I saw all kinds today, including a $2.5k Yamamha one... https://usa.yamaha.com/products/aud...00_g/index.html

Hugely subjective, again - but what is a good compromise point? I would assume a good subwoofer would help the Opticons out with the bass that they have more difficulty in handling...

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

Bring several tracks, if possible make sure they are high bitrate. The price jump on the rubicons is for the hybrid tweeter, that’s what you’re paying for. I would audition the smaller rubicons (with a sub enabled) to see if it meets your requirements. Remember the receiver will cross you’re speakers over (only allow frequencies above a certain cutoff point), so your woofers on the mains/centers/ surrounds will not have to work as hard. I have a ribbon tweeter bias so I’d go for the smaller rubicon mains, and I’ll bet the center will also sound better. Again, watch a movie with heavy dialog and see how it sounds, that’s what centers are for. The only trepidation I would have is that ribbons don’t have the dispersion that domes have, that being said with the hybrid tweeter you get the best of both worlds, but I’d check to see how wide the “sweet spot” is. Move around and see how drastically the highs are attenuated. Be careful when auditioning as humans generally interpret louder as better, so try to keep the volume equivalent (not on the receiver knob though, get an SPL app for your phone) remember the rubicons are less efficient.

As for subs, you don’t need to spend $2k US to get a really good sub. Let me know what subs brands you have available. But with subs it’s almost always about excursion and distortion at low frequencies. So you almost can’t have too much amplifier power. You should be able to get a 500 watt, 12 inch (minimum) sub for ~$1k. If you want to be a player you can get a servo controlled sub which substantially limits distortion. I’m not sure what you’re overall budget is but I have a rough idea.

One additional thought, if your building a house, get the the wires run through the walls in advance you can get 12 gauge CL2 wire in a spool relatively cheap, trust me it’s better than wires running all over. Also, give some thought on in walls for your rear surrounds..


Mizzz

I've gone for Chord Company SARSEN cables to run through ceiling and walls for Atmos ceiling and rear speakers.

Brand - we have most of the decent international Brands, just not the smaller US Specialists for the most part. Some examples I can recall from today are:

Bose, Bang & Olufsen, Bowers & Wilkes, Dynaudio, Polk, JBL, Marentz, Denon, Dali, Monitor Audio, Fyne, Elac, Cambridge Audio, KEF, Sonos etc.

Budget - I am looking at this as a once in a lifetime thing. I don't plan to ever upgrade. But I don't want to take out a loan to do it, so I am prepared to build the system part-by-part whilst I save in the interim! Purchase period would only really likely begin from April next year, and I'll take up to a year if I have to, to get everything 'nice'.

Thank you again for your solid advice - I really appreciate it.

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'