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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:
This is a good thing, right?

I'm really surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet around here, or at least to my knowledge. Whatever the country's reasons are for doing this or to the degree that they mean to do what they claim--it's got to be viewed as a positive regardless. And it's arguably something that certainly wouldn't have happened had gobal affairs of the past 3+ years occurred differently than they did. I hope Libya means and does what they say, it would be a welcomed, proactive move after years of tension and open hostility. Somehow I'm still somewhat suspect.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/afric....wmd/index.html

quote:
Nuclear watchdog head meets Libyans on WMDs
Gadhafi's son: Iraq conflict irrelevant to Libyan offer
Saturday, December 20, 2003 Posted: 5:38 PM EST (2238 GMT)



President Bush says Col. Moammar Gadhafi has agreed to let international weapons inspectors enter Libya.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
(CNN) -- U.N. nuclear watchdog director Mohamed ElBaradei met Saturday with a senior Libyan official in Vienna to discuss Tripoli's plans to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program.

"They met this afternoon ... for more than an hour" at the International Atomic Energy Agency headquarters, IAEA spokesman Mark Gwozdecky told CNN.

Libya's six-member delegation was led by Dr. Matug Muhammed Matug, secretary of the National Board of Scientific Research, Gwozdecky said. Though he said he was not sure whether the group returned to Tripoli, "their official business is complete now."

Asked whether further meetings were planned, Gwozdecky said, "I wish I could tell you. On Monday, all will be revealed."

Libya announced Friday that, after meetings with U.S. and British officials that began in March, it would get rid of its banned weapons programs.

Along with former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, ElBaradei headed the international inspection teams in Iraq before the start of the U.S.-led war.

The son of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi told CNN Saturday that "the capture of Saddam or the invasion of Iraq is irrelevant" to Libya's announcement that it is to abandon its weapons of mass destruction program.

"In fact, we started the cooperation even before the invasion of Iraq and we decided to announce it, the outcome of that cooperation, two weeks ago," Saif Al-Islam Gadhafi told CNN's Andrea Koppel.

"Really it was a long and tough secret negotiation for nine months, and two weeks ago we closed the deal and we said, 'OK, done deal, announce it,'" he said.

However, Blix said he suspected Moammar "Gadhafi could have been scared by what he saw happen in Iraq."

Interviewed in Stockholm, Sweden, Blix said Libya's moves were "welcome," although the Libyans "may be exaggerating ... a bit" in their disclosures about what components they may have had.

Blix: We have to learn what they have
"I think we have to learn what did they have," Blix said. "They say that they will adhere to the Non-Proliferation Treaty for nuclear weapons. They are already party to that treaty, and they have had inspections for years." (Full story)

Gadhafi said Libya's intent in entering into the agreement was to gain access to defensive weapons and banned technology, to have sanctions against it lifted and "to eliminate any threats against Libya from the West and from the [United] States in particular."

But family members of those killed by a Libyan bomb aboard Pan Am Flight 103 -- 15 years ago Sunday -- were not so pleased with the deal.

Bert Ammerman, a spokesman for the families of those killed who lost his brother in the bombing, said it was "very cynical" to see U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair call the agreement "a major step forward when they're dealing with an individual that was totally responsible for massacring 189 Americans at 31,000 feet."

Earlier this year, Libya accepted responsibility for the bombing and agreed to pay up to $10 million to the families of each of the 270 people killed -- 259 aboard the plane and 11 on the ground. In September, the U.N. lifted sanctions it had imposed on Libya.

U.S. sanctions remain in place, and Bush said it was still too early to consider lifting them.

Ammerman said he supports wholeheartedly going after the leaders of countries that sponsor terrorism and that Gadhafi "has a proven track record of state-sponsored terrorism."

"If someone else was in power, I'd be here supporting it, saying that today's enemy is tomorrow's friend, but not Gadhafi," he said.

'Libya was under threat'
The Libyan leader's son, however, said labeling Libya a sponsor of terrorism was misunderstanding the situation.

Two years before the Pan Am bombing, President Ronald Reagan had ordered U.S. warplanes to strike at Tripoli. The bombing killed Gadhafi's adopted daughter.

"In the past, we terrorized our enemies and we have the right to terrorize our enemies because they bombed our cities, they killed our people, they terrorized our people and we have the right to retaliate, but now the story is totally different," Gadhafi said.

"We don't have President Reagan anymore ... therefore we have to change our policy also and now we have a different administration, a friendly policy towards them."

Gadhafi said that "Libya was under pressure, under threat, sufficient American threat" to enter into negotiations.

"As soon as we realized there was no hidden agenda, there is no real threat against Libya and we can solve all problems through amicable ways, we responded and we became very transparent," he said.

Now, Gadhafi said, the three nations have entered into "a win-win deal" with Libya hoping for more access to defensive weapons and an end to sanctions -- moves Bush said could come to pass but not until it's certain Libya will stick to its end of the bargain.

But Joseph Cirincione, director of the Non-Proliferation Project of the Carnegie Endowment for Peace, a non-profit, nonpartisan research institute, questioned the administration's play on the deal.

"We don't know what to make of these reports coming out from the White House yesterday," Cirincione told CNN. "Some administration officials are playing it up, saying Libya was close to a nuclear capability. I don't think that's likely the case. They didn't have much of a serious effort going on here." (Full story)

More importantly, Cirincione said, would be Libya's destruction of its chemical weapons program. "They may have had the capability to produce some biological agent ... as well," he said.

Old Post Dec-21-2003 14:53  United States
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St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

read about this in the guardian yesterday, i think it's very good news, lets hope it will not only be a temporary corporation..

and this proves that diplomacy works!

Old Post Dec-21-2003 15:27  Europe
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.

I find it to be encouraging. The guy with the funny hats has decided that it is much worse for his country, and thusly himself, to be considered a pariah and lose virtually all trade with the outside world. Especially considering that Libya was one of the most prosperous oil producing countries in the 1970s and 1980s before the UN sanctions cut off that revenue.

MrS


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Old Post Dec-21-2003 16:02  United Nations
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PHALPAX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Boston

I wouldn't be overly optimistic about Libya's annoucement, hell I'm not really optimistic at all about Libya being absolutly clean and upfront about it. But then again, it may be like the South Africa situation...

Old Post Dec-21-2003 18:20  United States
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NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood

When it comes to that particular region of the world I will take any good news that comes out of it. I am happy to see that the U.S. and Great Britain negotiated with a Middle East regime for a satisfactory outcome, now if only those other two parties could do the same with each other, Israel and the Palestinians that is.


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Old Post Dec-21-2003 19:02  United States
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rizo
rizoholic



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: sf south bay

one of very very very very... very few things bush has done right

Old Post Dec-21-2003 20:35 
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.

Why are all of you giving Bush credit for this?

Ghadafi has been moving towards this situation for the last several years. He handed the intelligence officers who built the Pan Am bomb years ago and the settlement with the families of PanAm 103 and the AirFrance incident have been in the works since before Bush got elected.

The only person who deserves any credit on this is Ghadafi himself. International pressure helped but the pressure of the US alone means nothing. We bombed tripoli in the 80s and killed one of his children in response to the Berlin nightclub bombing that killed 2 US servicemen but that did nothing to change his ways. A decade of a total embargo on virtually all trade by the UN is what did it.

Just because the current administrations of the US and the UK are patting themselves on the back over this does not mean they actually had any real effect on the outcome.

MrS


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Old Post Dec-21-2003 20:45  United Nations
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rizo
rizoholic



Registered: Apr 2003
Location: sf south bay

you're right, guess i was just being gullible and hoping bush did something right

wonder how the nk and iran situation will turn out. im guessing iran is being truthful about its nuclear power development, or israel would have already bombed the site.

Old Post Dec-21-2003 20:54 
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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA / Milwaukee, WI

quote:
Originally posted by MrSquirrel

Just because the current administrations of the US and the UK are patting themselves on the back over this does not mean they actually had any real effect on the outcome.

MrS


Ummm...sure. Okay. So if there were no US and Britain, Qaddafi still would have made the speech that he's giving up his WMD program?

This is a dividend from the Iraq war. The behind-the-scenes negotiations on the Libya agreement started the day before the coalition launched air strikes on Baghdad, when it was clear that obstinate nations would not be able to play around with the UN anymore. You're kidding yourself if you believe that allied actions in the last year had nothing to do with this decision.

Old Post Dec-21-2003 21:09  United States
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

quote:
this proves that diplomacy works!


Diplomacy works between two sane parties, I'll agree to that. There are many circumstances where no amount of diplomacy will ever work to solve a problem. Hate to say it, but as long as two people want the same thing (or two different things, for that matter), there will always be war.

Old Post Dec-21-2003 21:44  United States
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MrSquirrel
Auf Wiedersehen



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In a Tree.

quote:
Originally posted by imokruok
Ummm...sure. Okay. So if there were no US and Britain, Qaddafi still would have made the speech that he's giving up his WMD program?

This is a dividend from the Iraq war. The behind-the-scenes negotiations on the Libya agreement started the day before the coalition launched air strikes on Baghdad, when it was clear that obstinate nations would not be able to play around with the UN anymore. You're kidding yourself if you believe that allied actions in the last year had nothing to do with this decision.


I did not say they had no effect on the outcome, but sying that this is a direct result of the policies of this administration alone is more naive than you accuse me of being.

This is a complex issue where the credit does not deserve to go to one party alone. That is naive and unrealistic.

I was not meaning to praise the Colonel as the savior or anything, I was pointing out that history does not start and end with Sept 11 2001 or the election of Bush. Too many people in this forum act that way, probably because they are too young to have been looking at these issues for very many years.

MrS


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Old Post Dec-21-2003 22:05  United Nations
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Johan (DJ Irish)
dj bum



Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Malmööööö!

quote:
Originally posted by imokruok
Ummm...sure. Okay. So if there were no US and Britain, Qaddafi still would have made the speech that he's giving up his WMD program?

This is a dividend from the Iraq war. The behind-the-scenes negotiations on the Libya agreement started the day before the coalition launched air strikes on Baghdad, when it was clear that obstinate nations would not be able to play around with the UN anymore. You're kidding yourself if you believe that allied actions in the last year had nothing to do with this decision.


Well, maybe the War in Iraq was what tipped the scale in the end but Ghaddafi has been moving Libya towards west for the last 10 years, probably mainly because the sanctions has really ruined it's economy. Not even Libya's compensations to the victims of the Lockerbie disaster (even though they officially never admitted to have anything to do with it) helped them get that ""rouge" nation stamp whiped away. This is most probably a savy politcial move by Ghaddafi since it's the best possible time ever for a country in the mid-east to say it will destroy it's WMD stockpile.

Btw, in our local newspapers this morning they mentioned that
voices has been raised towards Israel to step away from it's nuclear program due to Libyas somewhat unexpected move. Not suprisingly the muslim countries in the mid-east are the loudest proponents of this but could one think there is some merit to it now when it could be argued that mid-east is on the dismantling course?


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Old Post Dec-22-2003 09:32 
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