On an interesting note, under Saddam Hussein, Sunnis and Shiites lived together in peace. I guess that's one of the very few accomplishments of the Saddam era.

I don't think peace can happen there either. Only a tough leader can bring them together again. Until then there will always be somebody on either side unhappy with their share of the pie. Plus American presence is only adding fuel to the fire.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium On an interesting note, under Saddam Hussein, Sunnis and Shiites lived together in peace. I guess that's one of the very few accomplishments of the Saddam era.

Well i wouldnt call it an accomplishment because Sadaam had them living in peace by fear. He basically had them in check, thats all. Plus Sadaam supported the Sunni's & was a Sunni. He did alot of barbaric things to the Shias in Iraq. The Sunni's were & are a minority in Iraq. And now many of the Sunnis dont know what to do cause they lost power & the Shias have power & many are pissed & want revenge. So i think the way Sadaam had things is partly to blame for the situation now. But the dumbfuck Bush administraition didnt think too much of that before invasion. Or they might of thought much into it cause they have what they wanted. A long dragged out war & this Sunni vs Shia conflict is a great way to keep the money flowing from american taxpayers to Bush's buddies.

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A destabilised Middle East does not help Israel at all. When Israel collectively punished Lebanon by destroying the majority all of its civilian infrastructure it shot itself in the foot, even the Israelis here agree with that. Ask yourself this: Are Hezbollah more or less powerful after Israel "changed the face of the middle east" by wiping Hezbollah out? The result of the war is that it fermented even more Arab enmity towards Israel (i didnt think it was possible) and showed the world what Israel precision bombing is like (dropping carpet bombs in civilian areas, deliberately targetting non-combatants and civilian convoys trying to flee the conflict, etc)

Civil Wars and Failed States are breeding grounds for extremist groups because of lawlessness, poverty, lack of work, and utter despair. Palestine being the prime example; if the Palestinians had the same infrastructure, access to clean water, food, education, and standard of living as the Israeli Poppulation do you think elements within the Palestinian poppulation would be so willing to give up everything they had by blowing themselves up as compared to those now that live in utter despair in the squallid refugee camps?

Hypothetically speaking if Iraq wasn't invaded and Saddam was toppled in the near future then yes i think there would still be a civil war between Sunni and Shiites with many deaths but i doubt it would be anywhere near the scale that it has reached now, im of the opinion that the US army has exacerbated the problem.

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Originally posted by jonSun Well i wouldnt call it an accomplishment because Sadaam had them living in peace by fear. He basically had them in check, thats all. Plus Sadaam supported the Sunni's & was a Sunni. He did alot of barbaric things to the Shias in Iraq. The Sunni's were & are a minority in Iraq. And now many of the Sunnis dont know what to do cause they lost power & the Shias have power & many are pissed & want revenge. So i think the way Sadaam had things is partly to blame for the situation now. But the dumbfuck Bush administraition didnt think too much of that before invasion. Or they might of thought much into it cause they have what they wanted. A long dragged out war & this Sunni vs Shia conflict is a great way to keep the money flowing from american taxpayers to Bush's buddies.

I was hoping I could get away with my post realizing this same thing after I was done. You're absolutely 100% right and I agree ;-) I am glad you understand well the situation in Iraq ;-) If peace was attained in Iraq right now, American forces would have to relinquish their control ;-)

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Originally posted by tathi A destabilised Middle East does not help Israel at all. When Israel collectively punished Lebanon by destroying the majority all of its civilian infrastructure it shot itself in the foot, even the Israelis here agree with that. Ask yourself this: Are Hezbollah more or less powerful after Israel "changed the face of the middle east" by wiping Hezbollah out? The result of the war is that it fermented even more Arab enmity towards Israel (i didnt think it was possible) and showed the world what Israel precision bombing is like (dropping carpet bombs in civilian areas, deliberately targetting non-combatants and civilian convoys trying to flee the conflict, etc)

Hmmmm .... ??? Hezbollah was far from defeated in the Lebanon campaign earlier last year. Hezbollah might have got hit hard in parts close to the border with Israel, but Israel's failure to wipe them out in a short campaign was a tremendous loss to America's allies. After the media got in the action, Israelis have been embarrassed by hitting civilian targets and ruining Lebanon's infrastructure. As a result, Hezbollah actually got more supporters because Lebanese saw that it was an Israeli aggression against their country. Hezbollah won that war. They actually won it the minute they capptured the 3 soldiers, knowing that Israel to launch a ill-planned and disastrous bombing campaign of Lebanon which was portrayed as act of aggression by all countries, except the usual American-led coalition.

Now Hezbollah, heavily funded, is taking credit for rebuilding Lebanon and has doubled its representation in the Lebanese parliament. Bravo, Israel, bravo.

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I don't think Sunni/Shiite tension or conflict is anything new. I think we're all just more aware of it these days.

The question of going into iraq is still debatable, but if we withdraw right now, there will be mass killings on a massive scale. We have to support the government, and take out the sectarian militias in Iraq.

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Awesome replies guys


I know the Sunni's and Shiites have been in war many times in the past,but it is just that it is happening at a large scale and all at the same time,just seems a little strange.

After all when it comes to the U.S. this is a perfect excuse for them to show the world how important it is for them to be in the region and not to leave,and thats why I wonder if they are responssible for this sunni and shiites war perhaps indirectly?

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Originally posted by Krypton The question of going into iraq is still debatable,

How so?what else is there to debate?

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but if we withdraw right now, there will be mass killings on a massive scale. We have to support the government, and take out the sectarian militias in Iraq.

With the U.S troops staying or leaving things will not change unfortunatly,it is too late I believe.I think the U.S has a much bigger agenda there that goes beyond Iraq,god knows what it is tho.

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer How so?what else is there to debate?

Well, nevermind, it's not debatable anymore is it..

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With the U.S troops staying or leaving things will not change unfortunatly,it is too late I believe.I think the U.S has a much bigger agenda there that goes beyond Iraq,god knows what it is tho.

That's speculation.

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Shakka's right. this Sunni/Shia phenomenon is nothing new, however in Iraq, this exasperation today was the idea of a very calculating and cold blooded killer.

he knew the only way to beat the occupying forces was to pit the existing population against one another. it worked fantastically unfortunately. it's effectiveness unseen.

so while the occupying forces rebuild this country with one of the most magnanimous and selfless gestures from one country to another in history, he can sit back and kill DEFENCELESS INNOCENTS IN A MOSQUE OR A MARKET OR A GAS STATION and watch the world media turn it around on the occupying forces. it was genius.

i'm not gonna stand for it. i'm not gonna give in and give up my hope from whence i started. i'm not gonna let this coward get away with it. i'm gonna fight it as best i can because i know this phenomenon, the peaceful Sunni/Shia model works all over the Middle East now as it has for centuries.

then i'm gonna leave.

Sunni/Shia also fight together in Iraq. that tells me how morally bankrupt his idea of pitting Sunni and Shia together was as well

quote:

NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. and Iraqi forces killed 250 gunmen in a fierce battle involving U.S. tanks and helicopters on the outskirts of the Shi'ite holy city of Najaf on Sunday, a senior Iraqi police officer said. The day-long battle was continuing after nightfall, Colonel Ali Nomas told Reuters, as tens of thousands of pilgrims converged on the nearby city of Kerbala for the climax of the Ashura commemorations. A U.S. helicopter was shot down in the fighting, Iraq security sources said. The U.S. military declined comment. A Reuters reporter saw a helicopter come down trailing smoke. Shi'ite political sources said the gunmen appeared to be both Sunni Arabs and Shi'ites loyal to a cleric called Ahmed Hassani.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jan-29-2007 at 04:53

a friend of bush in the avatar is kind of cool

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