Certainly not waterboarding or making a person wear panties on his head. I can't wait for the moral equivalence arguments. This is how you torture somebody, complements of our good ole friends in Al Quaeda. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that someone will claim that this evidence was planted by the U.S.

Well a few of our captives did die during torture so I would say that's pretty equivalent.

Oh yea and the kid getting raped too, I'd say that's fairly equivalent.

But isn't it unquestionable that waterboarding is indeed torture?

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Retro ...

I'd prefer pulling fingernails out with pliers.

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Torture methods have been around since antiquity. you can pretty much image cavemen torturing someone with crude stone tools. As long as the necessity to inflict pain exists, techniques of torture will exist regardless of how much we evolve. You may not find any justification in the morality of torture but for someone having undergone a similar situation, it's a different story. People who torture for sadistic pleasure or political gains (like Al Qaeda perhaps) are sick perverted bastards who need to be institutionalized.

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Originally posted by occrider Well a few of our captives did die during torture so I would say that's pretty equivalent. Oh yea and the kid getting raped too, I'd say that's fairly equivalent.

A couple of isolated events vs. a training manual for it? Refresh me about the rape--I'm drawing a blank.

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But isn't it unquestionable that waterboarding is indeed torture?

I'm not convinced. I guess it depends on who you ask. I consider the iron to the skin to be a little worse. There is also a difference between pain and physical harm, but I'm trying not to let things bleed into shades of grey because by and large this is a pretty black/white contrast between our methods and the methods of our enemy. Then again, maybe they're just that much better at it.

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Originally posted by occrider But isn't it unquestionable that waterboarding is indeed torture?

Won't it depend on your definition of torture ? By the UN definition it will be, I guess.

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Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

But if you come to think of what the Iraqi militia will do to a US soldier, maybe not.

Clarify this for me, are you saying that torture methods used by the US are somehow permissible because in contrast with those used by Al-Qaeda they seem to cause less physical pain. Is that your point? Or are you sincerely wanting to discuss what would classify as torture? Because with the contrast your first post implies I would say you are trying to somehow justify torture as long as it is less severe than what the enemy is doing.

Edit: As for manuals for torture, don't forget the US even had a school for training people on torture methods.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX Clarify this for me, are you saying that torture methods used by the US are somehow permissible because in contrast with those used by Al-Qaeda they seem to cause less physical pain. Is that your point? Or are you sincerely wanting to discuss what would classify as torture? Because with the contrast your first post implies I would say you are trying to somehow justify torture as long as it is less severe than what the enemy is doing. Edit: As for manuals for torture, don't forget the US even had a school for training people on torture methods.

How should the US conduct interrogation procedures for detainees known to have vital information? Would psychological stress induced without physical injury be acceptable to you? I'm wondering exactly where you draw the line on interrogation methods are acceptable.

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Originally posted by venomX Clarify this for me, are you saying that torture methods used by the US are somehow permissible because in contrast with those used by Al-Qaeda they seem to cause less physical pain. Is that your point? Or are you sincerely wanting to discuss what would classify as torture? Because with the contrast your first post implies I would say you are trying to somehow justify torture as long as it is less severe than what the enemy is doing. Edit: As for manuals for torture, don't forget the US even had a school for training people on torture methods.

What school was that?
Ivy League Despondency 101?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the States version of a 'torture' school wasn't open to public enlistment.
But a Joe-Blow manual on torture for Global Jihad?
Probably comes standard with the Al-Qaeda intro package...

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The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r What school was that? Ivy League Despondency 101? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the States version of a 'torture' school wasn't open to public enlistment. But a Joe-Blow manual on torture for Global Jihad? Probably comes standard with the Al-Qaeda intro package...

Become an AL QAIDA franchisee!! Start your own cell, anywhere you want!! Free cell phone, computer, food, lodging, etc., pending you sacrifice yourself to kill as many infidels as possible.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r What school was that? Ivy League Despondency 101? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the States version of a 'torture' school wasn't open to public enlistment. But a Joe-Blow manual on torture for Global Jihad? Probably comes standard with the Al-Qaeda intro package...

School of the Americas ring a bell for ya?
And in any case, does it matter? It still doesnt validate torture.

Edit: Also, good work from you and krypton in avoiding my argument. It is irrelevant if the states had a school for torture or not, if they had a manual or not. It still doesnt answer my question as to why does alqeda having a torture manual validates the US comitting torture.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Last edited by venomX on May-25-2007 at 02:12

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Originally posted by Krypton How should the US conduct interrogation procedures for detainees known to have vital information? Would psychological stress induced without physical injury be acceptable to you? I'm wondering exactly where you draw the line on interrogation methods are acceptable.

Sadly I am not in a place to dictate US policy, I am not even a citizen or live there. If I had a say, I would engage in activities to reduce the chances of an attack, such as bilateral talks, and helping moderates secure power in countries where extremists rule. I would abstain from direct intervention. I would provide monetary support but include requirements such as improving education tied to that monetary aid. There are many different ways to go around this. As I said before in another thread, to you actually, it is cheaper to prevent an infection than to try and cure it afterwards. All US efforts are usually misguided in that they never address the real problem, they just try to patch it up. Using torture may prevent one attack but it will also in the long run increase the chances of an attack. I already conceded in another thread that in some cases torture should be allowable. However I do not think that just because the enemy uses torture, torture should be an acceptable method of interrogation. It should be used only in extreme cases.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome