Before I go on, this is speculation, and I have nothing to back it up, but it's something to think about.

As most people know the US is a corporate state. Our economic reach is global and countries around the world keep the US dollar as a reserve currency. In other words, we're economically super powerful. This is NOT, I repeat, NOT without the support of the consumer within this country. Our entire economy is geared towards consuming, with much less emphasis on any saving. We are bombarded our entire waking hours with consumerist propaganda. Labels, commercials, print ads, billboards, bottles, etc. are always around to remind you of what you bought or should buy. Credit card companies possess our name and addresses and regularly sell them to each other so that we have junk mail from numerous vendors every week. They want us to spend, even if we are kept in a perpetual state of debt. They possess our spending records. Advertisements online are strangely designed to fit the user's spending pattern.

Then I was thinking... Mainsteam media, including record companies are owned by relatively few people. Case in point, Rupert Murdoch. Has anyone really listened to lyrics they hear on the radio or wherever and really took a second to ask yourself, "What does it all mean?"

"It's all about the Benjamin's baby..." -Diddy Combs

Well, what does it mean? I'll tell you what it means... It is the motto of consumerism. The dominant philosophy of this country is no longer theological in nature. The traditional theological philosphy has given way to a new philosophy in which everyone as an individual is judged not by spiritual worthiness (human dignity), but by how much one consumes. How many cars can you buy? How many jewels can you have on your body (and mouth)? How attractive is your body? Are your clothes in fashion? How much are you making at your job? The list goes on and on.

Well, making the hip hop/consumerism connection, the record industry is owned by group of few. Hip hop is rampant with glorification of consumerism. Gotta have diamonds in the grill, an iced out chain, the hottest shoes, the fancy car, the nicest clothes, the biggest house, the hottest girlfriends, the most money, and more money, and even more money. I'de say in a great number of tracks, the mention of money is almost ubiquitous.

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10

I bet everyone's heard of this saying? I'de be one to believe it for sure. The love of money is the root of all evil. ANd I believe we're headed down a path to distruction by our love of money, and our philosophy of consumerism. It will one day kill us in destroying our planet or destroying ourselves with WMDs. I swear to you this is the end of the road.

So finally I say, I consider mainstream hip hop, the most popular genre of music in the US as propaganda for a consumerist philosophy, and it is DAMN working!!

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consumerism is the best display of real democracy at work.

you call yourself an economics student- haven't you already learned the need for capitalist enterprises to constantly grow? that growth relies on consumption. hell, all of capitalism relies upon consumption. why is consumption an inherently bad thing?

i fail to see the point of this thread.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN consumerism is the best display of real democracy at work. you call yourself an economics student- haven't you already learned the need for capitalist enterprises to constantly grow? that growth relies on consumption. hell, all of capitalism relies upon consumption. why is consumption an inherently bad thing?

Consumerism to point of perpetual debt? No, I didn't know that was so fine and dandy...

quote:

i fail to see the point of this thread.

Discuss on consumerism and my speculation; have a debate. What the fuck do you think??

How about addressing the content, instead of addressing me as a person. Yea, I'm an economics student... So fucking what? Discuss, debate or shut up..

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Consumerism to point of perpetual debt? No, I didn't know that was so fine and dandy... Discuss on consumerism and my speculation; have a debate. What the fuck do you think?? How about addressing the content, instead of addressing me as a person. Yea, I'm an economics student... So fucking what? Discuss, debate or shut up..

I don't think that he knows the meaning of the word debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Consumerism to point of perpetual debt? No, I didn't know that was so fine and dandy...

but that is someone else's choice. in a free market i can buy whatever i choose as long as someone will give me the credit. if you have a problem with the "perpetual debt" idea, then perhaps you should start talking to every man, woman and child that has one?

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Discuss on consumerism and my speculation; have a debate. What the fuck do you think??

what i meant was, what is your speculation? that hiphop is US propaganda for consumerism? no more than any other privately owned good or service that we are inundated by.

secondly, a lot of US hiphop focuses more on gun violence and sex than it does on some weirdo consumerist agenda. how is it actually any different to any other genre of music?

quote:

How about addressing the content, instead of addressing me as a person. Yea, I'm an economics student... So fucking what? Discuss, debate or shut up..

meaning, that an economics student (or at least graduate) should know better than to equate rap music with some weird "consumerist agenda". music is simply part of popular culture which we are inundated by every minute of every day.

a real economist would also know that those with the "consumerist agenda" (whomever they are) don't need one particular genre to act as their closet mouthpiece. rap might typify the consumerism rampant in the US, but it is merely an outcome of that, it has no causal effect.

capitalism works by creating and expanding new markets. the entire system relies upon "coveting thy neighbours donkey" and competition. i still fail to see exactly what your point is. capitalism is evil? i dont get it.

if this is a critique on consumerism then youre doing yourself a disservice by attempting to link it to hiphop.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Before I go on, this is speculation, and I have nothing to back it up, but it's something to think about. As most people know the US is a corporate state. Our economic reach is global and countries around the world keep the US dollar as a reserve currency. In other words, we're economically super powerful. This is NOT, I repeat, NOT without the support of the consumer within this country. Our entire economy is geared towards consuming, with much less emphasis on any saving. We are bombarded our entire waking hours with consumerist propaganda. Labels, commercials, print ads, billboards, bottles, etc. are always around to remind you of what you bought or should buy. Credit card companies possess our name and addresses and regularly sell them to each other so that we have junk mail from numerous vendors every week. They want us to spend, even if we are kept in a perpetual state of debt. They possess our spending records. Advertisements online are strangely designed to fit the user's spending pattern. Then I was thinking... Mainsteam media, including record companies are owned by relatively few people. Case in point, Rupert Murdoch. Has anyone really listened to lyrics they hear on the radio or wherever and really took a second to ask yourself, "What does it all mean?" "It's all about the Benjamin's baby..." -Diddy Combs Well, what does it mean? I'll tell you what it means... It is the motto of consumerism. The dominant philosophy of this country is no longer theological in nature. The traditional theological philosphy has given way to a new philosophy in which everyone as an individual is judged not by spiritual worthiness (human dignity), but by how much one consumes. How many cars can you buy? How many jewels can you have on your body (and mouth)? How attractive is your body? Are your clothes in fashion? How much are you making at your job? The list goes on and on. Well, making the hip hop/consumerism connection, the record industry is owned by group of few. Hip hop is rampant with glorification of consumerism. Gotta have diamonds in the grill, an iced out chain, the hottest shoes, the fancy car, the nicest clothes, the biggest house, the hottest girlfriends, the most money, and more money, and even more money. I'de say in a great number of tracks, the mention of money is almost ubiquitous. "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10 I bet everyone's heard of this saying? I'de be one to believe it for sure. The love of money is the root of all evil. ANd I believe we're headed down a path to distruction by our love of money, and our philosophy of consumerism. It will one day kill us in destroying our planet or destroying ourselves with WMDs. I swear to you this is the end of the road. So finally I say, I consider mainstream hip hop, the most popular genre of music in the US as propaganda for a consumerist philosophy, and it is DAMN working!!

I've really been interested in Theology as of late and have also been researching something very related to this (the effects of devout materialism) on and off while in between other subjects.

Here's some of what I've been finding in regards to it:

quote:

Materialism itself is a meme, a specific, culturally determined way of thinking about reality. http://www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/materialism.htm

In Book II of Plato's Republic, Socrates says to Glaucon,

quote:

In my opinion the true and healthy constitution of the state is the one which I have described earlier [a society in which only the basic needs of all members are satisfied]. But if you wish to take a look at a society at fever heat, I have no objection. For I suspect that many will not be satisfied with the simpler way of life. They will be for adding sofas, and tables, and other furniture; also dainties and perfumes, and incense, and call girls, and cakes, all these not of one sort, but of all varieties. We must go beyond the necessities of which I was at first speaking, such as houses, and clothes, and shoes. The arts of the decorator and the embroiderer will have to be set in motion, and gold and ivory and all sorts of material must be procured. .... And with that we must enlarge our borders, for the original healthy state is no longer sufficient.

IMO, unless materialism is balanced by a healthy amount of spirituality, it simply becomes another insatiably pursued desire.

In Hinduism, strict materialism leads to Avidyā which prevents one from attaining Moksha, or the liberation from Samsara (The eternal cycle of birth, suffering, death, and rebirth)

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but that is someone else's choice. in a free market i can buy whatever i choose as long as someone will give me the credit. if you have a problem with the "perpetual debt" idea, then perhaps you should start talking to every man, woman and child that has one?

You do know this country is having record home foreclosures right? Do you know how many people are knew-deep in credit card debt, with rates 20% +? A lot of people know little to nothing about fiscal responsibility. Yet we're bombarded 24/7 by consumerism.

I'm suspecting your misunderstanding me again. You probably think I am for a no debt society... Nope not me... I'm for a fair system of debt. I also believe that the credit industry along with the Fed should both be nationalized. As Lincoln said, the people will save enormous sums of money in low interest.

quote:

what i meant was, what is your speculation? that hiphop is US propaganda for consumerism? no more than any other privately owned good or service that we are inundated by.

Does your food sing to you? No... Niether does your car... Music is made by people with a message. It is always propaganda. I think the music we listen to depends on whether we like the message(s) or not.

quote:

secondly, a lot of US hiphop focuses more on gun violence and sex than it does on some weirdo consumerist agenda. how is it actually any different to any other genre of music?

I guess you don't listen to hip hop much. Listen to the top 40 hip hop charts and I bet you 100%, some verse(s) about money will be in the majority of songs. Much more so than any other genre.

quote:

meaning, that an economics student (or at least graduate) should know better than to equate rap music with some weird "consumerist agenda".

See, I'm not a linear thinker... Me and you are completely different thinkers.

quote:

a real economist would also know that those with the "consumerist agenda" (whomever they are) don't need one particular genre to act as their closet mouthpiece. rap might typify the consumerism rampant in the US, but it is merely an outcome of that, it has no causal effect.

I never said hip hop causes consumerism. But it sure is the anthem...

quote:

capitalism works by creating and expanding new markets. the entire system relies upon "coveting thy neighbours donkey" and competition. i still fail to see exactly what your point is. capitalism is evil? i dont get it.

You act as if there is just one form of capitalism and that it's the same around the world. I don't know about the problems in Australia, but here in the US, a huge cause of a lot of the problems in this country is because greed of money. People are losing houses, pay checks are rising little compared to economic growth, inflation silently taxes the population so that lenders who loaned subprimes could be bailed out. Everything is about money. Don't you see the connection? Civilization is money. Music included.

quote:

if this is a critique on consumerism then youre doing yourself a disservice by attempting to link it to hiphop.

Agree to disagree once again..

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN consumerism is the best display of real democracy at work.

How do you figure? Did you accidentally say democracy where you meant to say capitalism?

Without checks and balances on monopolies and supply routes, you've basically taken out the individual participation and empowered the emotionless corporation. Farthest thing from "democracy" you can get is a few individuals controlling the majority of the power.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby How do you figure? Did you accidentally say democracy where you meant to say capitalism? Without checks and balances on monopolies and supply routes, you've basically taken out the individual participation and empowered the emotionless corporation. Farthest thing from "democracy" you can get is a few individuals controlling the majority of the power.

Consumerism, not capitalism. Im not talking about power, but choice and decision-making. Nobody is forced to buy anything. Consumption habits "vote" for the corporations or business that provide the goods and/or services that are consumed. Consuming is a lot more democratic than politics corporations don't just maintain control and power structures all by themselves, we put them there with our spending habits.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You do know this country is having record home foreclosures right? Do you know how many people are knew-deep in credit card debt, with rates 20% +? A lot of people know little to nothing about fiscal responsibility. Yet we're bombarded 24/7 by consumerism.

you're a weird libertarian you are yes, i know all about the foreclosures. that's what happens when people mismanage their finances. just another stage of the cyclic economy. sure, its bad news, but there's always some bad news in the economy for someone.

time is ripe for picking up a nice house cheap!

quote:

I'm suspecting your misunderstanding me again. You probably think I am for a no debt society... Nope not me... I'm for a fair system of debt. I also believe that the credit industry along with the Fed should both be nationalized.

ok, im getting a little bit out of my experience. how on earth would you nationalise the credit industry? surely you'd prefer the private sector to be responsible for bad loans, rather than your government?

i know you keep arguing for the nationalisation of the fed, but from my (albeit basic) understanding that wouldn't actually make any difference honestly, read occ's long post!

[quote[
As Lincoln said, the people will save enormous sums of money in low interest. [/quote]

in low interest people just love to borrow as well

quote:

Does your food sing to you? No... Niether does your car... Music is made by people with a message. It is always propaganda. I think the music we listen to depends on whether we like the message(s) or not.

well, i don't think your basic understanding of music is that strong a foundation to be starting with. for instance, trance is a perfect example. non-vocal trance- what's the message? maybe i just like notes?

quote:

I guess you don't listen to hip hop much. Listen to the top 40 hip hop charts and I bet you 100%, some verse(s) about money will be in the majority of songs. Much more so than any other genre.

fair point, and you're right. i avoid it like the plague. but i still don't see you making any link between consumerism and hip hop (in that hiphop is a peculiar and specific example inherently different from any other good that is sold).

quote:

I never said hip hop causes consumerism. But it sure is the anthem...

and what about those societies rife with consumerism but not hiphop? what is your explanation there?

quote:

You act as if there is just one form of capitalism and that it's the same around the world. I don't know about the problems in Australia, but here in the US, a huge cause of a lot of the problems in this country is because greed of money. People are losing houses, pay checks are rising little compared to economic growth, inflation silently taxes the population so that lenders who loaned subprimes could be bailed out. Everything is about money. Don't you see the connection? Civilization is money. Music included.

absolutely. capitalism might function slightly differently from country to country but essentially it is a global beast. of course everything is about money. that's not the argument. yes, music is included, but hiphop is no different to any other form of music. its popular culture vying for the consumption "voting rights" of the populace, alongside every other form of music. it isn't special in this regard.

you're giving hiphop a special place within capitalism and you haven't established why. i want to know how it is different from any other product that is being marketed currently?

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Consumerism, not capitalism. Im not talking about power, but choice and decision-making. Nobody is forced to buy anything. Consumption habits "vote" for the corporations or business that provide the goods and/or services that are consumed. Consuming is a lot more democratic than politics corporations don't just maintain control and power structures all by themselves, we put them there with our spending habits.

I think that's what the OP was trying to say: we've become stuck in an out of control cycle of monetary somnolence that we can't wake up from.

People don't realize that they don't need McDonalds, iPods, whatever the object is. In return, these companies have gained a lot of capital, which they put into advertisements and shares in the government. It's not very democratic in that sense; technically we are FREE to do whatever we want. But in reality, only a few people ever become self-aware enough to make that realization and utilize it, while most of us remain asleep thanks to efforts to make it as such by those with money (and of course, money in the current world equates to power).

I'm not saying that I know a solution besides putting checks and balances on certain aspects of monopolies and donations... just elaborating on the problem.

My main beef with the whole system is that as these corporations became richer and got these shares in our government, they began limiting the resources available to any common man who may want to compete. The laws against purchase of basic chemical supplies is an example of this.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby People don't realize that they don't need McDonalds, iPods, whatever the object is. In return, these companies have gained a lot of capital, which they put into advertisements and shares in the government. It's not very democratic in that sense; technically we are FREE to do whatever we want. But in reality, only a few people ever become self-aware enough to make that realization and utilize it, while most of us remain asleep thanks to efforts to make it as such by those with money (and of course, money in the current world equates to power).

but who are you to tell people what they do and do not "need"? surely liberalism and capitalism is all about consumer choice? i certainly feel i need music, it would be a little arrogant for me to then turn around and tell someone else that they do not need their product X.

im really wondering why people think the current state of affairs is at all different to any stage of advanced capitalism we have seen. it's not. we're not special and the problems are not new and unique. its just that there are (arguably) more of us aware of those problems.

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