Amazing read in the latest New Yorker. The outcome of the investigation was an absolute fucking disgrace. This is required readings for all Americans.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/...currentPage=all

Excerpt:

quote:

The next morning, after nearly thirty hours in the shower, the corpse was removed from the tier disguised as a sick prisoner: draped with a blanket, taped to an I.V., and rolled away on a gurney. Hydrue Joyner was reminded of the Hollywood farce “Weekend at Bernie’s,” in which two corporate climbers treat their murdered boss as a puppet, pretending he’s alive to avoid suspicion in his death. “I was thinking to myself, Un-freaking-believable. But this came from on high,” Joyner said of the charade with the I.V. “I took it as they didn’t want any of the prisoners thinking we were in there killing folks.” Joyner referred to the dead man as Bernie, but Army investigators soon identified him as a suspected insurgent named Manadel al-Jamadi. He was alleged to have provided explosives for the bombing that blew up the Red Cross headquarters in Baghdad a week before his arrest, and he had died while under interrogation by a C.I.A. agent. Within the week that followed, an autopsy concluded that Jamadi had succumbed to “blunt force injuries” and “compromised respiration”; and his death was classified as a homicide. Jamadi’s C.I.A. interrogator has never been charged with a crime. But Sabrina Harman was. As a result of the pictures she took and appeared in at Abu Ghraib, she was convicted by court-martial, in May of 2005, of conspiracy to maltreat prisoners, dereliction of duty, and maltreatment, and sentenced to six months in prison, a reduction in rank, and a bad-conduct discharge. Megan Ambuhl, Javal Davis, Chip Frederick, Charles Graner, and Jeremy Sivits were among the handful of other soldiers who, on account of the photographs, were also sentenced to punishments ranging from a reduction in rank and a loss of pay to ten years in prison. The only person ranked above staff sergeant to face a court-martial was cleared of criminal wrongdoing. No one has ever been charged for abuses at the prison that were not photographed. Originally, Harman’s charges included several counts pertaining to her pictures of Jamadi, but these were never brought to trial. The pictures constituted the first public evidence that the man had been killed during an interrogation at Abu Ghraib, and Harman said, “They tried to charge me with destruction of government property, which I don’t understand. And then maltreatment for taking the photos of a dead guy. But he’s dead. I don’t know how that’s maltreatment. And then altering evidence for removing the bandage from his eye to take a photo of it and then I placed it back. When he died, they cleaned him all up and then stuck the bandages on. So it’s not really altering evidence. They had already done that for me. But in order to make the charges stick they were going to have to bring in the photos, which they didn’t want, because obviously they covered up a murder and that would just make them look bad. So they dropped all the charges pertaining to the guy in the shower.”

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

I think it's obvious by now that people by enlarge are superficial and don't really have any principles as this isn't even issues to most people. Eigther that, and / or they're completely subservient to the state. The irony is that they think / tell themselves they're free. I learned this the hard way, by realizing people simply don't want to know, don't care, or it doesn't bother them enough to take action.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I think it's obvious by now that people by enlarge are superficial and don't really have any principles as this isn't even issues to most people. Eigther that, and / or they're completely subservient to the state. The irony is that they think / tell themselves they're free. I learned this the hard way, by realizing people simply don't want to know, don't care, or it doesn't bother them enough to take action.

By and large?



I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you talking about why most Americans don't seemed to be outraged/concerned by what was allowed to happen there? Or are you talking about individual soldiers there?

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis By and large? I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you talking about why most Americans don't seemed to be outraged/concerned by what was allowed to happen there? Or are you talking about individual soldiers there?

I mean people in general, not necessarily belonging to any state or the military. But it's certainly more relevant to any decadent society or culture, and post modern culture would definetly fall in that category. So yes, it does apply to citizens of this counntry in general. The level of ignorance in face of the wealth of information accessible to most people, and it's importance and relevance to any decent human being, should tell you something in contrast to the shallow dull activites primarily and almost exclusively engaged in, which pretty much defines their lifestyle. I only expect it to get worse, as there's isn't really a well defined floor for the base social denominator. It's a generalization of course, but you have to talk in generalized terms if you're trying to cover a broad topic in limited space. Obviously, that's not everyone, but most people, yes... and I'd say an overwhelming majority.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Well the best thing you can do is increase awareness. Talk to people, push your ideas out there, keep them at the forefront.

I find it interesting to compare the testimonials of the soldiers there found in the New Yorker article, to a news article on the subject from Foxnews during the investigation:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119808,00.html

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Well the best thing you can do is increase awareness. Talk to people, push your ideas out there, keep them at the forefront. I find it interesting to compare the testimonials of the soldiers there found in the New Yorker article, to a news article on the subject from Foxnews during the investigation: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119808,00.html

Been there, done that. Now I'm disillusioned with it, since not many people seem to care. It's sad, but I learned it the hard way... and have become somewhat nihilistic in my world view ever since . Here's one example:

tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops...

Amongst several others. It's mostly silence followed by denail. And apparently the more I move out of mainstream political discourse, the more "radical" or "crazier" I become in the eyes of the majority, even old school PDD colleagues, aquantinces, and friends. My curiosity and desire for increasing my awareness and understanding takes me there, but apparently the less indoctrinated I become, the more of a "nut" I am. At this point, there's several subject I can't even talk about since it completely pointless, and judeging by the reaction to far less disturbing subjects (relatively speaking), it only reinforces my pesimism, not that I'm pesimistic by nature or anything... quite the contrary. I mostly browse this forum now just to stay in touch with popular opinion, and have given up on my hopeless 'quest' for lack of a better term. Sometimes I can't refrain from posting, but it would probably be a better idea if I did... I'd save myself a lot of time, and would probably be a happier person. Anyways, nevermind my ramblings ... I guess it's a good thing that some people care enough to bring up the subject, even if the thread goes largely ignored. As you can tell, I'm pretty jaded.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Been there, done that. Now I'm disillusioned with it, since not many people seem to care. It's sad, but I learned it the hard way... and have become somewhat nihilistic in my world view ever since . Here's one example: tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops... Amongst several others. It's mostly silence followed by denail. And apparently the more I move out of mainstream political discourse, the more "radical" or "crazier" I become in the eyes of the majority, even old school PDD colleagues, aquantinces, and friends. My curiosity and desire for increasing my awareness and understanding takes me there, but apparently the less indoctrinated I become, the more of a "nut" I am. At this point, there's several subject I can't even talk about since it completely pointless, and judeging by the reaction to far less disturbing subjects (relatively speaking), it only reinforces my pesimism, not that I'm pesimistic by nature or anything... quite the contrary. I mostly browse this forum now just to stay in touch with popular opinion, and have given up on my hopeless 'quest' for lack of a better term. Sometimes I can't refrain from posting, but it would probably be a better idea if I did... I'd save myself a lot of time, and would probably be a happier person. Anyways, nevermind my ramblings ... I guess it's a good thing that some people care enough to bring up the subject, even if the thread goes largely ignored. As you can tell, I'm pretty jaded.

Speaking for myself, I think the negative responses you receive are less a result of your ideas or what you say, but more a reaction to how you say it.

The main problem on this sub-forum is that most people confuse having a different opinion as not even having ever critically considered an issue, when in fact, that person may have spent an equal amount of time and thought on the issue but simply been convinced by a different argument. Accusing anyone with a different opinion of being naive, "sheepish", or stupid is completely counterproductive.

As to the issue at hand - the desensitization toward Iraqi and Afghan citizens in the American military continues to astound me. In order to do some of the things that have been done at Abu Ghraib, the perpetrator would really have to view the victim as something less than human.

___________________

Last edited by Lebezniatnikov on Mar-21-2008 at 20:16

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov As to the issue at hand - the desensitization toward Iraqi and Afghan citizens in the American military continues to astound me. In order to do some of the things that have been done at Abu Ghraib, the perpetrator would really have to view the victim as something less than human.

Read the article brau, I drew different conclusions from it.

It's not as simple as losing your morals while in a combat field. The mechanisms behind how that happens are also very important, and the SOP (or lack, therof) of the US Military is basically what led to these happenings.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

WOW.

I just don't even know what to say anymore.