|Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN |
conservatives have a real quandry imo because they can't complain about the debt then lambast any attempts to raise taxes, and they can't complain about a recession and then criticise attempts to stimulate the economy through government spending. spending has a bigger impact on GDP than cutting taxes.
shit's all fucked up.
Well this is true... although real conservatives like myself abandoned Bush and the RINO's after their detachment from the very principles they got elected on. Only if they acknowledge the mistakes they made and show by example that they will not continue down that path can they be forgiven. What they did is being exponentially magnified by the people in power now... so, if what Bush and his team did was fucked up, what does that say about the current administration? The perfect example is the new governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie. He's the first dude I've seen in a long time that ran on fiscal responsibility and is actually doing what he said he'd do: absolutely refusing to raise Jersey's massive tax burden in any way, while making the necessary cuts in spending that will lead to balancing the state's budget.
|Originally posted by Comrade Stalin |
We lowered taxes big time, and look what happened. Deficits soared under a so-called fiscally conservative Republican administration.
Yes, we did... and aside from having an unemployment rate between 4.5 and 5% during Bush's tenure, more tax dollars went to the Federal Government than at any point in history. Deficits soared, as you correctly point out, at first... and then you can see the trend each year heading towards balance. Look for yourself at this motherfucker of a graph:
|But since our democratic system allows the minority party to throw a monkey wrench in any meaningful reform, we have to work with what we have, which is a mixed economy. |
This statement is very misguided. Please tell me what meaningful reform has the GOP stopped in the last 18 months. The minority party cannot do anything right now. They don't have the votes, and haven't had the votes to stop anything. Every single idea presented by fiscally responsible members of the GOP (Paul Ryan for example) is not even considered... if they aren't physically locked out of the discussions like they were over healthcare. You have to get off that talking point that the GOP are to blame right now for our fiscal crisis. If the Democrats wanted to push through something that could honestly help, it would be easy as pie. I agree with you about having a single flat tax... it would supercharge the economy all by itself... which is why the government is opposed to it.
|After this crisis, and the Great Depression, there will be a huge faction that see government as the answer. With that in mind, and that very faction in power, we are not going to be paying down the deficit by lowering taxes.|
That's correct... because what's happening is by design; by human nature, people will incrementally give up bits and pieces of their liberty for someone to step in and quell the chaos; that someone being the only entity powerful enough to do so: government. And they know this. But government is actually not benevolent, nor does it have our best interests at heart. The power players do what they have to do to stay in power and grow. They never "tighten their belt", no matter how horrible the economic times are. This is why if the tax-and-spenders stay in power, they'll never lower taxes for any reason.
|Kevin, there is something you must recognize here. The so-called, free market, fiscally conservative, Republican party of the last 8 years failed miserably. Their laissez-faire, pro-big business, de-regulatory, low tax policies failed. The tide of history has therefore, logically, shifted to the other side of the spectrum. All the solutions you outlined were exactly the policy of the Bush Administration. You can't expect the next administration to follow that lead when it clearly didn't work. |
I agree- they failed miserably and deserved to be ousted from power. But they did not fail because of the principles of conservatism, which works every time its tried. They failed because they became what they most despised. And I'm all for regulation, but proper regulation. Our authoritarian, out of control super-state poses a regulatory burden on America now that costs us $1.2 trillion annually. Consider the following:
-3,503 new regulations took place last year.
-Regulatory costs absorb 8.3% of domestic GDP.
-Regulations + spending combined puts the federal government's share of the economy at over 30%.
-Regulations cost more than income tax!
-New rules that cost at least $100 million increased by 13% between 2007 and 2008.
|You have witnessed a shift in government policy, from right to left, which after 8 years of Bush, can only be seen as a logical shift. Obama wasn't voted into office to continue Bush's policies. You know that. America voted for a leftist president knowing full-well what they would get. And any country that would vote for the same party responsible for ballooning deficits, two un-paid wars, and a collapsing economy, is a country that doesn't deserve my respect. |
Again, I agree- Republicans needed a swift kick in the ass and to be thrown out on their asses. Bravo to that. But the pendulum swung way too far in the other direction. We desperately need it to come back the other way a bit.
But I disagree that America knew what they were getting. Unfortunately, so many of them were grossly uninformed (and economically illiterate); Bush derangement syndrome was enough to vote for anybody... only now is the buyers remorse setting in, and the evidence of this is Chris Christie in New Jersey, Scott Brown in Massachusetts, Bob McDonnell in Virginia, and the tidal wave of Democrat losses coming in November's election. If this was what America wanted, Obama and the Democrats would be more popular than ever right now.