quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, I was going to write my big-ass post but then my housemate, who's a massive comic buff and erstwhile film student, just came in and said, "Had any more thoughts about TDKR?" and I can't be bothered saying it all again. So, in short: it wasn't that good. The plot is extremely overcooked and relies on so many contrivances and conveniences that I just can't take the symbolic and allegorical struggles of each character seriously. I can't stand a film that tries to present itself as smart, and ladens down every character and fist fight with multi-layered allegory, and yet simultaneously treats the viewer like an idiot because it expects us to turn our brains off and accept so much stupidity and coincidence. This is basically a problem I have with comics and comic book movies in general. I thought The Dark Knight was a good film because it managed to stay just on the edge of plausibility. TDKR, in trying to top it, falls off the tightrope.

TDK had a better story with a better villian.

Bane is clever and smart in the beginning and turns out to be a complete dolt who gets hit in the mask once and then is taken out completely by a character who could have been left out completely. Better yet, Batman should have died. Not pretend, I'm retired now but I'm still alive to appease fans, No! More like I made the ultimate sacrfice for the gotham, and that is to die.

There were so many loose ends that just got tied up in a passing, matter of fact way. How comissioner Gordan never figured out that Bruce Wayne was Batman is kind of shocking considering all of the gadgets and shit BAtman has, Bruce is one of the few in the city to have access to the kind of resources you would need.

Batman shouldn't have beaten Bane out of anger, but of fear. He's lost so much up until the point that losing gotham would have been a legitimate motivation to finally defeat bane. It would have actually have made sense so that Batman could apply what he learned.

Showing the Bat after batman got out of prison would have been better and more exciting. I don't know why filmmakers put the best action towards the beginning of the movie.

The passionate dialog between alfred and bruce is cut short in the beginning, and that is kind of too bad because their feud could have lasted longer and played a more integral part of the story.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

I swear 80% of Michael Caine's lines were in tears.

Everyone's talking about how it's much better the second time around and it makes me want to see it again. It's so common with Nolan's films.

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That's definitely true in my experience. I appreciated Dark Knight the most the third time around.

they better not make another batman with robin. and i agree it would have been awesome if batman just died.


also I agree the stupid lil boy twist was fuckin retarded i was waiting for someone else be like "NO! I was the lil boy!" thats not a plot twist that was just fuckin gay. The movie could have kept going without that stupid woman.

I will just say this, cool movie by the last 45 mins killed it for me.


We def didnt need a robin. I hope if they do make a new Batman they cast Drake as robin

That's almost as ridiculous as Halle Berry starring in her own Catwo-

Oh.

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quote:

Originally posted by Beatflux TDK had a better story with a better villian. Not pretend, I'm retired now but I'm still alive to appease fans, No! More like I made the ultimate sacrfice for the gotham, and that is to die.

good luck selling that to the studio.

So um Mr NOlan, when you say die, you mean bat man 4 takes place in heaven ? No, jewish guy with dress shirt tucked into jeans, i'm saying thats it. Other jewish guy with poney tail and persian features -Right, because he has done all he can on earth, ahh we can do a 3 spin off, batman in hell , batman in heaven and batman in limbo. You know who be the best satan, Hellboy, ahhh yaaaa,

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I'm just happy they actually did Bane justice and made him into the terrifying intellectual and physical force he is meant to be rather than some moronic beefcake.

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quote:

Originally posted by ziptnf I probably wake up QWOPing.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy they better not make another batman with robin. and i agree it would have been awesome if batman just died. also I agree the stupid lil boy twist was fuckin retarded i was waiting for someone else be like "NO! I was the lil boy!" thats not a plot twist that was just fuckin gay. The movie could have kept going without that stupid woman. I will just say this, cool movie by the last 45 mins killed it for me. We def didnt need a robin. I hope if they do make a new Batman they cast Drake as robin

No way! I would love to see a take on the Batman R.I.P. story arc when Dick Grayson/Nightwing takes over as batman. That whole shit was pretty awesome imo.

thats what I mean. I would love to see Batman dead.


Personally I think hes the worst superhero. his superpower is money. Take away his fortune and hes just some dude that knows karate. Jackie Chan could woop his ass

The Hulk's superpower is muscle. Take that away and he's a nerdy scientist. Take away anyone's single superpower and they're nothing. Why's money any different? Works for Iron Man pretty well.

This cracked me up. "The evolution of Batman".

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quote:

Originally posted by Banora I'm just happy they actually did Bane justice and made him into the terrifying intellectual and physical force he is meant to be rather than some moronic beefcake.

This was true until the end you realize that he's just another pawn and slave to Talia.

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quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney good luck selling that to the studio. So um Mr NOlan, when you say die, you mean bat man 4 takes place in heaven ? No, jewish guy with dress shirt tucked into jeans, i'm saying thats it. Other jewish guy with poney tail and persian features -Right, because he has done all he can on earth, ahh we can do a 3 spin off, batman in hell , batman in heaven and batman in limbo. You know who be the best satan, Hellboy, ahhh yaaaa,

Reboot. He said he was done with batman movies.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy thats what I mean. I would love to see Batman dead. Personally I think hes the worst superhero. his superpower is money. Take away his fortune and hes just some dude that knows karate. Jackie Chan could woop his ass

I would have loved to see him dead as well, but I was also content with the ending. Seeing Alfred happy was nice after a movie of him crying

I personally think he's the best, as he's the most realistic and accessible. Everybody who gets upset by the crime and corruption of the world can relate to Batman and love him. It's much harder to see yourself in the shoes of an annoying photography nerd who got bit by a radioactive spider and can now shoot webs out of his hands.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, I was going to write my big-ass post but then my housemate, who's a massive comic buff and erstwhile film student, just came in and said, "Had any more thoughts about TDKR?" and I can't be bothered saying it all again. So, in short: it wasn't that good.

Damn your housemate, I would have liked to read your whole thoughts, since I agree with your short version.

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Quarantine Classics - Puligny-Montrachet Edition [Progressive Classics] (April 2020)
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quote:

Originally posted by Lews It's much harder to see yourself in the shoes of an annoying photography nerd who got bit by a radioactive spider and can now shoot webs out of his hands.

In Nolan's realistic version of Spiderman, Spiderman would shoot webbing out of his ass. He would have to pull down his pants every time he wanted to shoot webbing. A movie like that could be interesting.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

Throwback to The Dark Knight, but holy crap, Heath was just playing a Tom Waits villain!

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I just saw it tonight. Although I felt the movie was very good...it also felt as though some of the key points of the story were rushed through (if you could believe a movie that's almost 3 hours is rushed through).

I also think this wasn't really a Batman movie, it was more of a movie with batman in it. kind of hard to explain but it was definitely one of the best super hero movies...but probably not as excellent as the dark knight.

8.5/10

Just like the other two: pretentious, overrated piece of crap. The characters are so twisted from the original series, that it's unbelievable. Catwoman has always been portrayed as a passionate, sensual killer, whereas in this movie she looks like an insecure teenager during her period. That has always been her place in the series - to own Batman. Besides, Anne Hathaway? Seriously? She's as charming as my left nut. And don't let me even get started on the Bruce Wayne character.

Besides, what the fuck was up with Bane's voice? He sounded like a homosexual Russian on crack cocaine.

And the end felt as if Nolan had some random ideas on the shitter that he threw up in the movie to make it more interesting.

Really couldn't think he could fail more than with "Inception", which was another shit action movie, but with enough (simplistic) plot to make the view feel as if he/she understood the grander scheme of things.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy that chick did the worst job of dying ever! and the first thing batman does after escaping a jail in jersualem is cover a bridge in gasoline so it looks like a bat when lit???? WHAT ABT THE BOMB BATMAN!!! WHAT ABOUT THE BOMB!!! how the hell did he find an hour to do such great craftsmanship when the bomb was going to blow in 5 hrs!!!!

yea the last 45 min or so was just too much bullshit
he escapes jail with no money,being beaten and brused up,no sense of direction etc etc then he ends up in gotham a few days later looking fine? YEA OK

and the way bane died was soooooo corney oh man
batman went thru all that training to beat bane and he wassent even the one who killed him ha ha ha what a waste
it would have been alot better if batman continued to knock off bane's breathing mask until the point he couldnt breathe no more. atleast make it somewhat believeable. catwoman comes back at the right moment and in the right spot and kills him? such bullshit

other than how the ending unfolded i thought it was a really good movie
i honestly felt bane was a pretty badass villan. he was both terrifying physically and smart at the same time
plus he acted like a true leader villan by having a whole city cause chaos under his wing.

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quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Throwback to The Dark Knight, but holy crap, Heath was just playing a Tom Waits villain!

Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Damn your housemate, I would have liked to read your whole thoughts, since I agree with your short version.

Well, I can't be bothered to construct a full essay on the subject, because it could run for pages, but here are my key complaints focalised through a couple of scenes:

1. Trapping all the police in the sewers. Just read that sentence back again. Hopefully the absurdity of this plot point should be self-evident. It's so multi-faceted in its stupidity only a master jeweller of bad storywriting could envisage it. Sending 3,000 police officers, the entire force, into the sewers to try and find a secret lair. Come on. The little montage we get of this event is so ludicrous it's practically slapstick, like a Python sketch: we literally see about 200 officers crammed wall to wall down one corridor. These people are trying to find the hidden underground lair of a noted mercenary who's already demonstrated he has a militia of gun-toting zealots, so they pack themselves wall to wall and march down the same corridor. A spectacularly efficient and well-thought-out piece of police procedure, I'm sure you'll agree.

Just in case you didn't roll your eyes so hard they fell clean out of your skull at this point, let's examine it further. For a police chief to order such a crazy move is madness in itself. But the script treats it not only as reasonable, but as outright predictable, because Bane's entire plan hinges on the police doing exactly that, so he can detonate the entrances to the sewers and trap them in. More than that, it hinges on this happening at exactly the right moment on exactly the right day. Think about it - his plan is even synchronised with a football match. He has managed to predict the very hour the police will execute Operation Catastrophic Fuckwittery. And while we're on the subject, what exactly is stopping the trapped police from simply exiting the sewers via the thousands of manholes in the city? I'm pretty sure those same manholes actually featured as a plot point earlier in the film.

Finally, it's presented to us as simple fact that Bane and his minions can infiltrate construction companies all across the city and lay tons of explosives without anyone noticing or encountering any difficulties. There is never any attempt to show how exactly they could pull off such a grand plan. It's simply there in the script, in all its gigantic implausibility, as something bad guys can just do. This is a long-running problem I have with Nolan's Batman films and again with the superhero genre as a whole: they operate in a reality where extremely complex plans can be pulled off without a hitch, and in the more grounded and gritty universe of the Dark Knight trilogy, it becomes even harder to accept. These films are supposed to be realistic portrayals of how super heroes and villains might exist, and yet the plots are just cartoonish. I personally struggle to invest myself in these grand, conceited plots and diabolical schemes because I just cannot come close to taking them seriously. They are pure fantasy.

2. The prison, and the symbolic jump. Once again, this prison is a ridiculous creation for innumerable reasons. For a start, it's quite clearly not a hell on Earth. It's just a normal prison, in a pit. A man can even expect to recover from serious spinal injuries (and apparently regrow missing cartilage in his knee) and train up to full fitness in this environment, which suggests a highly nutritious, protein rich prison diet and some very tolerant guards. Not that we ever seem to see any guards - with his ability to pull off mind-blowingly audacious plans, you would think Bane would have put in a failsafe and left a guy with a gun ready to kneecap Bruce Wayne should he actually look like escaping, rather than leaving him in the company of two profundity-spewing wizened old men.

This prison is also laughably easy to escape from. Anyone who's ever read prison break stories will know the incredible lengths criminals will go to to break out of even maximum security prisons. Even I, as a prison-escaping layman, could figure out an easy way to get out of this place. How about turning some of those unguarded metal railings into makeshift climbing gear? Or just, y'know, climbing up the rope all the way to the top? It would take a lobotomy for me to buy into the suggestion that this prison is inescapable.

Finally, and most importantly, the leap. This moment is pregnant with subtextual significance, or rather with textual significance because Nolan will never leave thematic content implied if he can't have a wizened old man vomit it out on screen to hammer the point home. And once again, it Makes. No. Sense. Hundreds of prisoners over many years have failed to make this jump, even with the knowledge that freedom awaits them and a slow, dull death at the bottom of a pit is the price of failure. So this jump must logically be simply too far for any human to make, right? But nope, not only can Bruce Wayne do it when he was recently paralysed, but a pre-pubescent child can as well. All you need to do is take the rope off and jump with fear of death. What the fuck, Nolan? What the fuck?

This is not how you make a deep, thoughtful film. In a genuinely smart film, something that makes narrative sense is imbued with a subtextual meaning that elevates aspects of the plot to the level of thematic significance. In a shitty, beat-you-round-the-head Nolan film, he creates a situation that is absolute nonsense (in the process insulting the audience's intelligence by presenting it as matter-of-fact) and exists entirely to be symbolic. That's not smart and that's not thought-provoking. It is the work of a man who has no conception of discourse layers or deconstruction. The Batman films make a huge point of presenting the superheroes/villains as allegorical figures, always representing some ideal or concept, and yet Nolan is a man who narratively cannot execute allegory. His films are textually flat, one dimensional. If they didn't outright tell you what shit stood for, you would never figure it out.

3. The lack of reference to the Joker. This is more a case of Nolan violating his own carefully constructed universe than anything else. TDKR makes a huge point that the story of Harvey Dent is a lie, and that so much of the city's subsequent moral framework is (rather vaguely, it must be said) built on this lie of Harvey Dent. The trouble is, the story of Harvey Dent is inextricably entwined with that of the Joker. There's no point in Jim Gordon tearfully admitting his conscience on the subject if he doesn't at least mention that Harvey Dent was a good guy who was twisted into madness by an evil terrorist. Most of Gotham City should remember the Joker - it was only eight years ago he was broadcasting on TV and hijacking ferries, and that kind of behaviour isn't quickly forgotten. There is some vague idea of "respect" for Heath Ledger behind this decision, but I'm not really sure how it is respectful. You don't even need to feature any scenes or flashbacks with the Joker - we only see a few extraneous frames of Dent to jog the memory - but surely it would be more respectful to the brilliant character Ledger brought to life by having him leave a significant legacy on the fictional universe you created? Without the Joker, the whole moral quandry the film presents about hiding the truth is rendered hollow.

I could go on and on about smaller plot holes and grievances, but those are the main issues I have with the film.

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Last edited by SYSTEM-J on Aug-06-2012 at 14:34

^^ And this, Jack, I why we love you.

PHENOMENAL review.

You brought up quite a few issues with the story that irritated me... I still liked the film though

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hahaha, awesome work system-j. unfortunately for the film i found those complaints to be the minor ones.

and fucking sushipunk has liked all the big budget scifi/fantasy turds this year. for shame.

I watched Redlettermedia's Half in the Bag review yesterday and I love how they specifically talk about the very same bitching SYSTEM-J brings up.
Without having seen the movie, it seems they have a lot more clue what they're talking about.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J stuff .

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, I can't be bothered to construct a full essay on the subject, because it could run for pages, but here are my key complaints focalised through a couple of scenes: ... Awesomeness ... I could go on and on about smaller plot holes and grievances, but those are the main issues I have with the film.

Like Stu said: Jack, this is why we love you. For the record, I would definitely read a full essay on the subject, if you ever do get bored enough or angry enough to do it

I agree completely with all you said and have actually brought up all those points with people, but it's fantastic to read it so eloquently and hilariously from you. You really should write more film reviews.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J 2. The prison, and the symbolic jump. Once again, this prison is a ridiculous creation for innumerable reasons. For a start, it's quite clearly not a hell on Earth. It's just a normal prison, in a pit. A man can even expect to recover from serious spinal injuries (and apparently regrow missing cartilage in his knee) and train up to full fitness in this environment, which suggests a highly nutritious, protein rich prison diet and some very tolerant guards. Not that we ever seem to see any guards - with his ability to pull off mind-blowingly audacious plans, you would think Bane would have put in a failsafe and left a guy with a gun ready to kneecap Bruce Wayne should he actually look like escaping, rather than leaving him in the company of two profundity-spewing wizened old men. This prison is also laughably easy to escape from. Anyone who's ever read prison break stories will know the incredible lengths criminals will go to to break out of even maximum security prisons. Even I, as a prison-escaping layman, could figure out an easy way to get out of this place. How about turning some of those unguarded metal railings into makeshift climbing gear? Or just, y'know, climbing up the rope all the way to the top? It would take a lobotomy for me to buy into the suggestion that this prison is inescapable. Finally, and most importantly, the leap. This moment is pregnant with subtextual significance, or rather with textual significance because Nolan will never leave thematic content implied if he can't have a wizened old man vomit it out on screen to hammer the point home. And once again, it Makes. No. Sense. Hundreds of prisoners over many years have failed to make this jump, even with the knowledge that freedom awaits them and a slow, dull death at the bottom of a pit is the price of failure. So this jump must logically be simply too far for any human to make, right? But nope, not only can Bruce Wayne do it when he was recently paralysed, but a pre-pubescent child can as well. All you need to do is take the rope off and jump with fear of death. What the fuck, Nolan? What the fuck?

To add to this: How does a man who just "recovered" from a spinal fracture manage to fall some distance with a rope tied around his waist and not break his back again? Or simply die?

Regardless of that I actually liked this movie more than Dark Knight.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews Like Stu said: Jack, this is why we love you. For the record, I would definitely read a full essay on the subject, if you ever do get bored enough or angry enough to do it I agree completely with all you said and have actually brought up all those points with people, but it's fantastic to read it so eloquently and hilariously from you. You really should write more film reviews.

I am much better qualified to review films than music, but I don't watch enough films or keep up with them enough to know all my references and classics. Otherwise I might have tried writing regularly about it.

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Last edited by SYSTEM-J on Aug-08-2012 at 05:36

The "how did he lay all of the explosives without anybody knowing" thing and "how did Batman have time to create a bat signal on the bridge without anyone knowing" are harder to take in this film than similar things in TDK, that's true.

The hospital and ferries somehow being rigged with explosives in TDK was easily dismissed as "because it's the Joker, and that's what the Joker does. It doesn't really have to make sense", a testament to how great the character was.

In TDKR, though, neither Bane nor Batman inspires that level of suspension of disbelief.

That said, I still loved the movie and shrugged off the somewhat-nonsensical stuff, because overall the movie didn't FEEL nonsensical. It's only when you look back and think about it do you realize there was a healthy amount of "check your brain at the door" involved.

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quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk At least last time you Brits got pissed off, we got punk music out of it. This time, it'll probably just end up being embers breaks

quote:

Originally posted by Quazar The hospital and ferries somehow being rigged with explosives in TDK was easily dismissed as "because it's the Joker, and that's what the Joker does. It doesn't really have to make sense", a testament to how great the character was.

And because two ferries and a hospital is a lot less than every sewer entrance in the city, several bridges and a stadium. But yeah... these little niggles didn't spoil The Dark Knight, whereas this time around I personally couldn't get into the film because of them. Nolan deliberately tried to top TDK and deliver a spectacular finale to the trilogy, but he just went too far for my liking.

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Jack's so good at debating he could persuade people the Earth is flat, if he really wanted to.

Quite a brilliant review by SYSTEM-J indeed, but for different reasons. Let me explain by looking at what everyone's least favorite mod has to say:

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk PHENOMENAL review. You brought up quite a few issues with the story that irritated me... I still liked the film though

Sushi, in a rare case of having a clue, understands that despite the plot inconsistencies he can still enjoy the movie, because they are not highly relevant for the movie's specific universe and what it tries to do. Another Aussie, PKC, too expresses how he thinks these issues are true but minor once. But of them understand that Jack is just spewing a load of irrelevant crap that fails to address the actual strengths and weaknesses of the movie.
But watch how both just humbly express their admiration and humbly applaud him, without even thinking about expressing their own concerns. Why? Because they know that if someone rants this long and eloquently about something irrelevant he can and will just kill any contrary opinion by even longer, better worded hammers of text.
So yeah, I agree, brilliant debating skills indeed.

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Perhaps if you put half as much effort into critiquing the film as you did into critiquing my post about the film, someone would give a shit about your opinion, Meat.

But no... WHY DOES BATMAN HAVE TO BE BATMAN!?

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PSEUdo Intellectual Hipster opinion ROFLMAOOOoo1!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Meat187 Quite a brilliant review by SYSTEM-J indeed, but for different reasons. Let me explain by looking at what everyone's least favorite mod has to say: Sushi, in a rare case of having a clue, understands that despite the plot inconsistencies he can still enjoy the movie, because they are not highly relevant for the movie's specific universe and what it tries to do. Another Aussie, PKC, too expresses how he thinks these issues are true but minor once. But of them understand that Jack is just spewing a load of irrelevant crap that fails to address the actual strengths and weaknesses of the movie. But watch how both just humbly express their admiration and humbly applaud him, without even thinking about expressing their own concerns. Why? Because they know that if someone rants this long and eloquently about something irrelevant he can and will just kill any contrary opinion by even longer, better worded hammers of text. So yeah, I agree, brilliant debating skills indeed.

i don't read so good but it seems his critique said nothing of whether you would or should be entertained. It was a well written analysis of certain elements and how those elements were hard to deal with given his own admitted bias which he didn't try and hide regarding these types of movies. He gave context to his critique and within that context, it is pretty consistent. And that is what a critique should do. Not tell you what to like but give you some insight into a film within a certain context and let you make your own mind up. I personally think he didn't talk about the costumes as much as I would of liked and it lacked some forced homoerotic inferences i enjoy from more scholarly type reviews.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Perhaps if you put half as much effort into critiquing the film as you did into critiquing my post about the film

Actually yeah, I should do that.

Let me briefly say this: The Batman movies play in a certain universe, they are superhero movies and as such accept the "super" in their heroes and villains. It means that the answer to "how can the Joker plant bombs in a hospital" / "how can Bane plant bombs all over the city" / "how can Batman get back into Gotham and install the bat logo fireworks" is always "because he's The Joker / Bane / Batman". It also means that their character is often so iconic that in any new manifestation (like a movie) they are more a name than an actual person.
So when I say I have a problem with Batman being Batman I mean that I reject this whole premise. It doesn't work for me. I don't want to accept this iconic characters in their comic book world as the basis of an action movie. What I do criticize as inconsequential and irrelevant to the movie's actual problems is when this premise is generally accepted and then individual parts of it are picked out and dissected.

Even more briefly now, I think the movies actual problems are not the plot holes but being overloaded and overambitious.

Edit: Go and wash your laundry, Hal. This is a thread for non-castrated men.

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Last edited by Meat187 on Aug-08-2012 at 22:42