After much debate in the chill out room this year regarding this unfortunate conflict in the middle east.. whats your official stance on the situation? I for one hope that both sides live in peace... but i do not agree with the agressive and murderous tactics that the Isreali army utilizes to "weed out terroists"....I feel for the Palestinians who have to defend themselves with rocks.... yet i do not agree with the suicide bombings that certain vulnerable and ignorant youths carry out in the name of "Allah". In any event.. innocent people are dying... most of them Palestinians... and that is what concerns me the most. In my opinion, the Isreali army is just as bad as any other "military super power" and should re-evaluate the value of a life. Hate breeds hate.

I have a lot more to write... but i will leave that in the discussion to follow within the thread.

Your Opinions?

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Last edited by Cyrus King on Oct-30-2002 at 06:18

oh boy, here we go

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King After much debate in the chill out room this year regarding this unfortunate conflict in the middle east.. whats your official stance on the situation?

my official stance: i think that the palestinians should and will have a country of their own in the future, however not under the current regime and not until everything has been done to remove any trace of the terror organizations that reign freely there; islamic jihad, hamas, hizbollah, al-aqsa martyr brigades, fatah, tanzim, etc. (ya i know the list is long, guess it serves a point).

quote:

but i do not agree with the agressive and murderous tactics that the Isreali army utilizes to "weed out terroists"....

i do agree. although some of the tactics used by the IDF (israeli defense forces) are contraverial and there are a few cases which deserve repremand (as in all wars) we have seen that a peaceful way out has not worked (see years 1992 to 2000). the result is that israel has to take a more agressive approach to defend its citizens. furthermore i dont think any other country in the world faces as much threat from terrorism as israel does. the worse the threat the stronger one has to try to wipe out that threat. the IDF is attacking in reaction to terror and not the other way around. one must never appease terror or give in to their demands. None of these "agressive and murderous" taken by the IDF would even be happening if there wasnt the element of terror. i political solution to this should be talked through negotiations and diplomacy

quote:

I feel for the Palestinians who have to defend themselves with rocks....

i dont. instead of venting his misguided anger on israel, which has been brainwashed into him since he was a little boy, i would much rather see him vent out agianst his governing body, the same one that holds little to no freedom of speach, does little to nothing to stop terrorism, and has not provided for him a peaceful and economically positive future

quote:

In any event.. innocent people are dying... most of them Palestinians... and that is what concerns me the most.

i havent checked the statistics in the past two months or so but last time i checked, the precentage of innocent civilians killed vs. militants/military personal, was much much higher on the israeli side. thus showing that the targets of palestinian terror are the civlians while the targets of the IDF are militants.

btw i hope you guys dont mind me quoting often and answering that specific part. its not that i scrutinize everything someone say but rather easier for me to organize my thoughts and how to say them one by one.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Last edited by Izzy on Oct-30-2002 at 06:35

the damm suicide bombers need to quit blowing themselves on busses clubs and such...i cant imagine how such incidents affect someone like Gil Swartz, an Israely member on this board who dj's at clubs in Israel. fukking crazy...otherwise ill keep the rest of my thoughts to myself cos ill get in trouble.

>JM<

I'm fairly biased because I am Jewish, and lived in israel for part of my life, so of course if there's only going to be one country I'd want it to be Israel.

The real problem is, you can't split it into two countries. It will never work, both sides have way too much pride, and there are area's were they can not compromise. Certain area's that have religous importance to both groups etc. I wish it would stop though, Its really hard sometimes when I here about a bombing, and then go right to the phone and call like 30 people and see if there all ok. And it's obviouslly even harder for them.

Sadly, I don't see any end to this conflict in the near future, probably not even in my lifetime either.

I can't help but see the entire conflict as a circle of violence - each retaliates against the other in an unending spiral. I know it's difficult to take a stand when your citizens are being killed and homes destroyed, but one side or the other needs to step back and realise that by retaliating, it only invites further retaliations for the retaliation.

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For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in.

They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see.

That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells. Nothing else to it! Where do you think Israel got it's might army from?

have you even seen some of the guys in the Israely army?
Young kids most of them!!
They shoot some kid they used to play with when they were five, the kids dad straps crap to himself and blows some other kid and the cycle keeps going.
In the middle you have fucking corporations using the conflic to take oil prices up and down and what have you.

Give me a break, the poor Israelies and Plastinians are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It aint THEIR war! the war was taken to them!

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Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent; that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells. Nothing else to it! Where do you think Israel got it's might army from? In the middle you have fucking corporations using the conflic to take oil prices up and down and what have you. Give me a break, the poor Israelies and Plastinians are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It aint THEIR war! the war was taken to them!

i dont know if you knew this but there is absolutely no oil in israel or the occupied territories. israel has to get its oil from the US rather then from the persian gulf which is much closer. oil plays no part in this war, IMHO.

also i think the whole 'circle of violence' is a bunch of crap. if theres no palestinian terror, there will be no israeli military action. if there is terror, the army will do its best so that it wont happen agian and hence no more violence (not yet achieved)... kinda simple, no real circle there.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Not talking about oil in Israel. But close enough, to the middle east anyhow. And besides the whole suicide bombing is a reasonably new phonamenon. Far more recent than the conflict itself anyway.

Lets face it. The two nations are just tools in the hands of others.
A multinational peacekeeping force could have interfered long ago but you don't see that do you? Ofcourse not! Where ever there's war there's profits to be made.

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Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent; that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:

Originally posted by Illusion For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in. They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see. That's not the problem. Behind every war, Behind every conflic there's someone's economical interest! The Palastine freak show is a front for the U.S Government to creap it's way in closer to the oil wells.

what oil wells, I never heard of any oil wells in Palastine?

The issue itself is a difficult one. Palastinians and Israels have to want peace if there is to be peace, but then you have others that want to maintain the status quo of violence. I dont think Arafat or Israel at the moment is really committed to peace when it comes to decisions made behind closed doors. They seemed to be trying for a couple of years in the late 90's though, but it broke down.

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quote:

Originally posted by Illusion For gods sake! The place is more than big enough for the two nations to live in. They'r not even that different. pickout a palastinian and an israeli youth at random and spend some times with them, you'll see.

First of all difrentiating between Israli's and Palistinians is very easy. Secondly not only is Israel a very, very small country, but even if it was big enough to support 2 states, there's no way that the 2 groups can both get the area's they want.

i dont really know enough about this to have an 'official' stance...
i keep hearing about palistinian suicide bombings, but there has to be something provoking them? doesnt there? i thought israel was...'created' by the UN? after WW2? so other countries had to give up room for them? is that what part of the fighting is about? settlers from 1 nation in the other's land? sometimes i think though everyone should leave them alone and let them blow themselves up, but thats a little extreme i guess if you have an area that is very important to different religions, who have extremists on both sides, then of course things will get hostile. i guess when those extremists cant accept the other people wanting to go to the same place, then there'll be trouble. especially if the extremists are high up in the decision making, or start blowing up people. hmm. i hope that wasn't too incoherent, its late

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I beleive part of the reason why these suicide bombers exist is because they are driven to insanity in part after seeing Israeli tanks and guns blow up their families and friends...And to those who agree that its worth killing Palestinians to "weed out terrorists".... you are no worse than a terrorist yourself... a life is a life....as said before... we all bleed the same colour.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V