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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 What's your opinion on prisons? Imo, they are not a good solution. In US, there are literally millions of people in prisons, and they are all costing the state huge amounts of money. Also, it is often the case criminal bosses keep running their businesses from their cells. Rehabilitational effects of prisons are also very questionable, because results show that more than half of the convicts return to doing what they got in jail for. Many people get out from them worse off than they got in. I think convicts who commit major crimes should be killed and the ones who commint minor ones should be obligated to do forced labor. This way they wouldn't cost the state money and could infact be of some use to the society.

I agree that prison's are not a good solution.
The criminal justince system in america is outragously fucked up.
But I do think prisons are necesary, the system needs to be reformed.
And I do agree criminals should be made to labor for the state and government (not forced labor though where conditions would mimic slavery).
Through this work, they should also learn job skills. A major reason (which is a starter of other factors) that so many people are in prison is the lack of a job.
as to killing criminals:
I'm not for murdering a murder.

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Originally posted by montie I agree that prison's are not a good solution. The criminal justince system in america is outragously fucked up. But I do think prisons are necesary, the system needs to be reformed. And I do agree criminals should be made to labor for the state and government (not forced labor though where conditions would mimic slavery). Through this work, they should also learn job skills. A major reason (which is a starter of other factors) that so many people are in prison is the lack of a job. as to killing criminals: I'm not for murdering a murder.

Why do so many people assume that criminals can or want to be rehabilitated? Hasn't the past shown that criminals don't better themselves almost 100 % of the time? Furthermore why do you feel the need to spend money, time and insult their victims to try to straigthen criminals out? Do you think that society really needs these kind of people recirculated back into it?

Not a personaly attack, just curious since I've never understood this viewpoint.

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Originally posted by Nalin Why do so many people assume that criminals can or want to be rehabilitated? Hasn't the past shown that criminals don't better themselves almost 100 % of the time? Furthermore why do you feel the need to spend money, time and insult their victims to try to straigthen criminals out? Do you think that society really needs these kind of people recirculated back into it? Not a personaly attack, just curious since I've never understood this viewpoint.

If i had to be "rehabilitated" in the way that the current criminal justice system goes about doing it, i don't think i'd want to be rehabilitated either.
I never said anything about rehabilitation by brainwashing them and trying to make them think in the way society wants them to think, nor am i saying that they should be rehabilitated by being shown how their actions are wrong.
I think they should simply do jobs (such as construction for instance) while doing their sentance where they can learn skills so that they will be able to easily get a stable job once they finish doing their time.
The reason that "criminals don't better themselves 100% of the time" is because of the failure of the current system.
Say some dumbwit gets thrown in jail because he has a long record of stealing. The kid never finished highschool nor has held a steady job for over 2 weeks.
Currenly if he was arrested, he'd be in the slammer for a couple months maybe a year or two.
And what does he do there? He socializes with people just as fucked up if not more fucked up than he is, and does nothing productive.
Thus the mentality that he already had (of being lazy, not working) just gets reinforced by being in jail. In jail he has a guarenteed roof over his head and food. That is alot more than alot of people have before they go into the slammer.
In jail all they are is a further drain on society. We keep them pent up in these "people warehouses" and spend alot of money on it, only for them to get back out and end up going back in a short amount of time. The percentage of people who get released from jail or go on parole that end up back there is ridiculously high.
Teaching them something while they are doing their time that can be useful for them to get a good steady job, or helping them find some sort of work they enjoy doing in some sense would do alot more good than the system we have now.
Also if we made prisoners do labor for the city/state/governent (whatever), we would have a free labor force on our hands, thus we could get alot of shit done for really cheep.
I think this would be a much more productive and efficient system than the currently one established.

I agree with what you say, but my comment was regarding to criminals who commit the most horrid of crimes.

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Originally posted by Nalin I agree with what you say, but my comment was regarding to criminals who commit the most horrid of crimes.

I'd say just kill them, but not so long as our standard for determining guilt involves 9-12 random idiots picked off the street.

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Originally posted by Arbiter I'd say just kill them, but not so long as our standard for determining guilt involves 9-12 random idiots picked off the street.

haha, yeah, exactly

I have mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, many of the people in there are a danger to society, and need to be controlled somehow. But the prison system is incredibly expensive, and I'm against the death penalty. I guess the prison system is fine, I just wish it didnt cost so much to run.

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Originally posted by Nalin I agree with what you say, but my comment was regarding to criminals who commit the most horrid of crimes.

There really aren't to many of those. I don't see anything wrong with making them work also or giving them skills to get a job after they get out of prision. I'm all for keeping them in jail for a long time if not for the rest of their lives, depending on the crime and the person and the situtation of course.

I'm not for the death penalty. You are murdering someone.
By killing them you are bringing yourself down to their level.
This is a whole other discussion i don't really want to get into.
And besides there really isn't much evidence that the death penalty is related to bringing crime rates down.
There is no correlation.
In Europe there is no death penalty, and the crime rates are much lower than the US.

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Originally posted by montie There really aren't to many of those. I don't see anything wrong with making them work also or giving them skills to get a job after they get out of prision. I'm all for keeping them in jail for a long time if not for the rest of their lives, depending on the crime and the person and the situtation of course. I'm not for the death penalty. You are murdering someone. By killing them you are bringing yourself down to their level. This is a whole other discussion i don't really want to get into. And besides there really isn't much evidence that the death penalty is related to bringing crime rates down. There is no correlation. In Europe there is no death penalty, and the crime rates are much lower than the US.

Just because Europe has a lower crime rate doesn't mean that the death penalty isn't effective in the US. Maybe crime rates would go up even more if it wasn't in place. Anyway I'm for the death penalty for those that committ horrendous crimes and we're absolutely sure of their guilt. Even if they can be rehabilitated they don't deserve a second chance. Only if there is incontrovertible proof though ... our criminal justice system isn't foolproof enough at this point in time to impose the death penalty otherwise.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I think convicts who commit major crimes should be killed and the ones who commint minor ones should be obligated to do forced labor. This way they wouldn't cost the state money and could infact be of some use to the society.

well, as much as i agree with you on the above statement about executing the serious criminals, that too will cost the state a considerable amount of money. lots of money is spent for trials, and appellate courts after criminals have been convicted. some time ago, i have read that it's more costly to put someone to death, than it is to jail them for their entire life. this may not be true though.

as for executing the criminals, that should be shown on public tv - mainly to defer further crime by displaying the consequences.

now i cant wait to hear from those against capital punishment!

>JM<

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There really aren't to many of those. I don't see anything wrong with making them work also or giving them skills to get a job after they get out of prision. I'm all for keeping them in jail for a long time if not for the rest of their lives, depending on the crime and the person and the situtation of course. I'm not for the death penalty. You are murdering someone. By killing them you are bringing yourself down to their level. This is a whole other discussion i don't really want to get into.

Unfortunately some people are beyond help. Here's one example. There was this guy here who killed a girl with a Kalasnikov when he was 17 years old because she didn't want to go out with him. The marvelous croatian court system sentenced him to about 2 years, and the first thing he did when he got out was that he robbed an exchange office. The court decided to be really strict this time and sentenced him to about 5 years, although he himself claimed he was a danger to society and should be killed. Before that sentence expired, he was allowed to go home for the weekend, because a psychologist examined him and said he's of no danger to the society anymore, and the first thing he did was kill a cop and take one family hostage. Not to mention that the cases were completely clear, as there were tens of eye witnesses for each of his crimes. Now he's gonna get max 20 years because in our idiotic courts that's the max sentence. I think that kind of person shouldn't be allowed to live anymore, but he'll not only live, he'll be released in 20 years.

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I have mixed feelings on the subject. On the one hand, many of the people in there are a danger to society, and need to be controlled somehow. But the prison system is incredibly expensive, and I'm against the death penalty. I guess the prison system is fine, I just wish it didnt cost so much to run.

Well, that's why I'm saying those people should be used to do lousy work nobody else wants to do. That would infact turn prisons into a profitable institution.

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