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Israel, The Great (yeah right)
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| cougar23 |
Yup. We support this alright. You can thank Richard Pearle and the puppetability of George W Bush for this one.
Link: http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-...et/5reasons.htm
Had the US not intervened, would Kuwaitis bombing Iraq in suicide fashion be consedered so morraly wrong? I see many similarities between the Iraq invasion of Kuwait and the Israli invasion of Palestinin territories. If you can argue this, please do. |
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| ZinG |
| oh yes plenty will argue just wait and see hehe;) |
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| Cracka-X |
Israeli invasion(if that's what you want to call it) of Palestinian territories was in self defense.
Iraq n Kuwait was for oil.
There's no similarity between Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and Israeli and Palestinians. |
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| cougar23 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cracka-X
Israeli invasion(if that's what you want to call it) of Palestinian territories was in self defense.
Iraq n Kuwait was for oil.
There's no similarity between Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and Israeli and Palestinians. |
Hitler also called his invasion of Poland "self defense." Are you going to justify that, too? :rolleyes: Self defense, my ass. I guess it really helped them, didn't it? Look at how much progress Israel has made from invading other countries! The answer is: NONE
I rest my case. |
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| Cracka-X |
You've got to be ing kidding me.
According to UN Resolution 181, Palestine was partitioned into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Palestine had Gaza, West Bank, Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North, and parts of the Negev desert in the South. Yet Israel was attacked on all sides in 1967, and the loser lost land as a result.
After War of 1967 The Golan Heights were taken from Syria, b/c Syria was bombing Israel from the Golan Heights prior to the war. After Syria was defeated, Israel had no reason to give back this land.
A portion of this land is used as a buffer zone. There's been leaders of Israel wanting to give too much of Israel to the Palestinians which would leave them vulnerable to annihilation of their state.
I'm Jewish and I don't appreciate you making a similarity between Hitler and Israel. Especially when you make bull arguments that don't even abide to historical evidence. |
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| cougar23 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cracka-X
You've got to be ing kidding me.
According to UN Resolution 181, Palestine was partitioned into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Palestine had Gaza, West Bank, Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North, and parts of the Negev desert in the South. Yet Israel was attacked on all sides in 1967, and the loser lost land as a result.
After War of 1967 The Golan Heights were taken from Syria, b/c Syria was bombing Israel from the Golan Heights prior to the war. After Syria was defeated, Israel had no reason to give back this land.
A portion of this land is used as a buffer zone. There's been leaders of Israel wanting to give too much of Israel to the Palestinians which would leave them vulnerable to annihilation of their state.
I'm Jewish and I don't appreciate you making a similarity between Hitler and Israel. Especially when you make bull arguments that don't even abide to historical evidence. |
Look, I didn't mean to compare Hitler and Israel, I just meant to say that anyone can use "self defense" as a reason for attack. I'm truly sorry if that offended you.
The point is, though, that invading Palestinian territory really isn't helping defend Israel (Yes, the Golan Heights is a different story, Syria doesn't deserve that land.) Destryoying Palestinian neighborhoods, though, is not helping. It is making the conflict worse. The Palestinians are defenseless. Yes, Israel is surrounded by hostile regimes, but that does not at all justify their treatment of the Palestinians. You have to agree that they have the upper hand now. So why is this terrorization and control of Palestinian lands justified? Is it payback? What good has this payback brought them? How is counter-terrorizing an abandoned people improving the situation? |
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| Cracka-X |
Terrorizing the land? As in destroying a Palestinian's building that harbored the building of suicide vests and bomb materials?
I read Commie-Salami's thread where the Israelis pinned Palestinian kids and killed a peace activist. I'll admit this isn't right, but then again what am I to say against someone who prolly lost someone to a suicide bomber or a Palestinian extremest that scalped a Israeli soldier or brutally beat him?
Sure it's not right but they'll go on like this b/c the Palestinians or Terrorist Organizations(IE:Hamass) started it and won't stop their ing terrorism b/c they believe that all of Israel belongs to them.
I read an article that said "3 PALESTINIANS KILLED IN SHOOTOUT AGAINST ISRAELI SOLDIERS" I went on the Jerusalem Post the same day and see an article bout the shooting and it said 5 Israelis were killed in a shooting that finally ended killing the 3 Palestinians.
It seems everybody is against Israel but US is it's only ally that keep her alive. |
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| Arbiter |
| quote: | 1 Israel Is Illegally Occupying Palestine
Under UN Resolution 242, Israel is required by international law to withdraw from all the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem. The United Nation's General Assembly has repeatedly condemned Israel's occupation of the territories as illegal (see UN resolutions 338, 1397, and 1402, among others). Israel's continued occupation of Palestine, sanctioned and maintained by the US, is one of the most serious obstructions to a just and lasting peace in the Middle East. |
A stronger argument could be made that the U.S. is illegally occupying the land of the Native Americans. So what? The United Nations has systematically failed to achieve every one of its stated objectives. As an organization, it is an equal failure to the League of Nations. What it says is completely irrelevant. This is an appeal to false authority fallacy.
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2 Israel Systematically Violates the Human Rights of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories
Each day, Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement that governs wartime rules of engagement and to which Israel is a signatory. Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements. Israeli soldiers regularly arrest and detain--often for years-- Palestinians without due process. According to Amnesty International, members of the Israeli security forces regularly use torture and prolonged incommunicado detention against Palestinians.
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Israel would not be engaged in these activities were it not for Palestinian terrorism. This argument fails to objectively understand the causality of the situation.
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3 Israel is an Apartheid State
Israel has developed an elaborate system of racial discrimination, embedded in its legal system, rivaling Apartheid South Africa's laws. These laws include the Law of Entry, the Law of Return, the Citizenship Law, the Military Service Law, and a host of legally sanctioned, discriminatory rabbinical rulings. Palestinians are denied various welfare benefits, access to many jobs, and the leasing of homes and land controlled by government bodies. Electricity, sewerage, and roads are provided free to Israeli households, whereas many Palestinian communities in Israel, and especially in the Occupied Territories, have existed for decades without adequate services. Laws governing land ownership such as the Law of Acquisition of Absentee Property and the Law for Acquisition of Land blatantly discriminate against Palestinians. Indeed, land ownership in Palestine is more unjust than it ever wasin South Africa; at the height of apartheid, black people nominally `controlled' 13 percent of the land, whereas in Israel the Palestinians control only 2 percent of the land.
Blockades which allow settlers free movement but restrict Palestinians have lost 100,000 workers their jobs. The Israeli government issues identification cards and car number-plates, color coded, which restrict travel for non-Jews. Palestinians in the West Bank are routinely prevented from travelling to the Gaza Strip because they have to travel through `Israeli' territory. No significant industry has been permitted to develop in the West Bank or Gaza. Consequently, Palestinians are concentrated in the lowest paying jobs and form a super-exploited labour force for Israeli capital. The occupied territories import 93% of goods but export a mere 7% of what they produce. Palestinian exports to Western Europe are banned so as not to compete with Israeli exports. Ninety percent of Palestinian workers must travel to Jewish towns for employment.
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My correspondences with several individuals of Palestinian descent residing as legal citizens of Israel suggest otherwise. But perhaps they're just lying. :rolleyes:
This obvious distortion of facts makes plain that this argument is being presented by an extremist organization with no respect for truth.
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4 US Military Aid to Israel Violates US Law
The US Arms Export Control Act (AECA) strictly forbids the government from giving military assistance to any country that violates internationally recognized human rights. The State Department's 2001 human rights report states: "Israeli security units often used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators including live fire ... impeded the provision of medical assistance to Palestinian civilians by their strict enforcement of internal closures, which reportedly contributed to at least 32 deaths. Israeli security forces harassed and abused Palestinian pedestrians and drivers who were attempting to pass through the more than 130 Israeli- controlled checkpoints ..." Under the AECA, "the President is required to report to Congress promptly upon the receipt of information that a substantial violation of AECA may have occurred." The US government is fully aware of the Israeli army's human rights violations, as the above quote from the State Department shows. The US government has eroded its own credibility as an impartial mediator by continuing to arm Israel without restriction and allowing these weapons to be used against civilian populations in violation of US law.
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I don't support that legislation, hence I have no reason to ask our government to abide by it.
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5 US Military Aid to Israel threatens US Security and Global Stability
US funding of Israel's human rights abuses fuels resentment towards the US. While the rest of the world strongly condemns Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian Territories, our government provides the political, diplomatic and material means for the occupation to continue. Such actions by the US government provoke anti-US sentiment throughout the world, ultimately jeopardizing the safety of people living in the US. The US can build its own security only by gaining the trust and respect of the international community.
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A classic example of the argument from adverse consequences fallacy. The author constructs a slippery slope of potential causes and effects resulting from U.S. support of Israel, then appeals to the fear of the last effect in the series as a basis for argument. Apparently this author did not believe in the writing principle of saving your best point for last.
| quote: | Originally posted by cougar23
Had the US not intervened, would Kuwaitis bombing Iraq in suicide fashion be consedered so morraly wrong?
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Yes. Suicide bombing is not a legitimate means of obtaining political redress.
I hope I've made clear to you why the argument presented above are not valid.
Cheers,
Arbiter |
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| cougar23 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cracka-X
Terrorizing the land? As in destroying a Palestinian's building that harbored the building of suicide vests and bomb materials? |
As in destroying entire neighborhoods of innocent people because of the suspected action of a few. That's would be like bombing Iraqi citizens because of Saddam Hussein's actions. Killing and displacing innocent people only generates hatred in the truly innocent.
| quote: | | I read Commie-Salami's thread where the Israelis pinned Palestinian kids and killed a peace activist. I'll admit this isn't right, but then again what am I to say against someone who prolly lost someone to a suicide bomber or a Palestinian extremest that scalped a Israeli soldier or brutally beat him? |
I dunno. The violence is stupid, no matter what side you're on. What do you say to Palestinian children that have their friends murdered? Do you say murder back? I'm sure you'd feel like doing it, but you have to realize that no party has advanced their cause any by retaliation.
| quote: | | Sure it's not right but they'll go on like this b/c the Palestinians or Terrorist Organizations(IE:Hamass) started it and won't stop their ing terrorism b/c they believe that all of Israel belongs to them. |
Yes they will. Their terrorism is getting them nowhere just as Israli occupation is getting them nowhere. All the violence gets them is dead and more angry.
| quote: | I read an article that said "3 PALESTINIANS KILLED IN SHOOTOUT AGAINST ISRAELI SOLDIERS" I went on the Jerusalem Post the same day and see an article bout the shooting and it said 5 Israelis were killed in a shooting that finally ended killing the 3 Palestinians.
It seems everybody is against Israel but US is it's only ally that keep her alive. |
Well, that may be true. Instead of providing Israel with a constant supply of arms and military aid, they could fund a real campaign for peace. Killing Palestinians will not subdue them, and suicide bomings will not subdue Israel. It will end up getting a bunch of people dead, and that's all. |
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| oDrori |
| quote: | Originally posted by cougar23
Their terrorism is getting them nowhere just as Israli occupation is getting them nowhere. All the violence gets them is dead and more angry.
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If you would for a second think of the results of that last quoted word, you would come to the conclusion that terrorists in fac achieve their exact cause by violence. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by oDrori
| quote: | Originally posted by cougar23
Their terrorism is getting them nowhere just as Israli occupation is getting them nowhere. All the violence gets them is dead and more angry.
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If you would for a second think of the results of that last quoted word, you would come to the conclusion that terrorists in fac achieve their exact cause by violence. |
i agree. although i agree that terrorism will lead the palestinians no where, the converse doesnt hold true to the israelis. in fact the strict operations conducted by the IDF as ordered by the government have produced a somewhat safer state for israel. there hasnt been a successful suicide bombing in the past few months, and many of the palestinian terrorists who masterminded and planned such attacks are either dead or in prison. of course a comprehensive peace plan would finally give ultimate security and peace for both sides, but if you belive that at this current time, if israel were to let the palestinians have complete and free reign in the 'occupied territories' then there would be less terror against israel, you are sadly mistaken. |
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| cougar23 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
i agree. although i agree that terrorism will lead the palestinians no where, the converse doesnt hold true to the israelis. in fact the strict operations conducted by the IDF as ordered by the government have produced a somewhat safer state for israel. there hasnt been a successful suicide bombing in the past few months, and many of the palestinian terrorists who masterminded and planned such attacks are either dead or in prison. of course a comprehensive peace plan would finally give ultimate security and peace for both sides, but if you belive that at this current time, if israel were to let the palestinians have complete and free reign in the 'occupied territories' then there would be less terror against israel, you are sadly mistaken. |
It's a very complex situation, and hatred goes back for a long time. I just don't see how this occupation has made any progress. Border controls are one thing, but bulldozing neighborhoods is another. And shooting and running over peace activists....how dumb can you get. Talk about bad PR. However much a tragedy suicide bombing is, it's hard to imagine Israli settlements in Pasestinian land do much good, as well as leaving entire neighborhoods homeless because someone from Hamas might have lived there. How does that "defend" Israel. Losing my home would only piss me off enough to become a suicide bomber. |
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