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Iraqi WMD trucks turn out to be hydrogen-production facilities (pg. 5)
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
Bah! Wolfowitz is a conservative . Some claim to legitimacy?:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: |
You missed the point of my post entirely ...
Bush would have had no legitmacy nor any reason to invade Iraq if Saddam had fully complied. Despite the administrations proven hostilities towards Iraq even before 9/11, it would have been virtually impossible for it to have invaded Iraq with absolutely no justification at all. So my primary argument still stands that Saddam is the biggest dumbass of them all ... simply look at his situation right now. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
When this is all said and done (and who knows how long it will take), several of us will be proven wrong, and several of us will be proven to have been correct. If I am ultimately wrong, I will gladly admit it, however I fear that when and if the WMD's are finally found and/or accounted for, there will be an equal amount of BS rhetoric from opposition groups claiming evidence was planted/falsified or simply created for political and financial gain.
One of many things that bothers me as of late is how skeptical and critical people can be about the U.S. administration while at the same time casting such non-critical and trusting opinions of countries like Iraq and people like Saddam Hussein. What good can be said about a brutal dictator? What has history taught us about dictators? Certainly not much positive. At least Bush has to answer to the people, congress, and his cabinet. Hussein didn't have to answer to anyone. Let's say I'm Hussein--I have my own country. I call the shots, I can do whatever I want within the confines of my country without any fear of reprocussions for my actions--until someone else steps in. Why would a man have a nuclear reactor built in the 3rd most oil rich country on the face of the Earth?? The man always had ambitions for WMD's and factually posessed them when he kicked inspectors out in '98. Are we to believe that he proceeded to destroy said weapons after he kicked out the inspectors? Remember that Hussein pretty much answered to no one. I think it's far more foolish to believe he simply destroyed the weapons instead of perhaps suggesting that he concealed them VERY WELL once there were no inspectors there to monitor what he was doing? And let's also not forget (even though it's minor IMO) that the Al Samoud missiles he posessed violated UN sanctions as well and alone were a material breach.
Like I said, if I end up being wrong, then I'll admit that I was wrong, but at this point I'm not ready to say there aren't WMD's in Iraq. I think that as more and more of the higher ranking "deck of cards" members are found, we'll get closer and closer to the truth. |
I think that was pretty well said, Shakka, and I understand this point of view fairly well. I guess my point of view is that although he is a dictator, and although it's good to have one less crazy fool in charge of a country around, the means and justification for us to oust and invade that country is suspect. There are many dictators out there that are in need to being eliminated, but the justification of performing such actions need to be substantial, otherwise a backlash can result (which is what we are experiencing now).
The difference between your view and my own in regards to someone eventually being right and wrong is this: I sincerely hope I am wrong. I want to be wrong. Unfortunately, you cannot share that sentiment, because if your view is wrong and this war is not justified, we have a major scandal on our hands. I want WMD to be found, and I want there to be justification. I have always said that if Saddam was indeed an imminent threat to the world, then our stance for invasion is justified. So I really hope for our sake and for the sake of the U.S. and British credibility that there is evidence of Saddam being an imminent threat. As it stands now, however, given the evidence pointing to slant and forgery, that threat is seemingly exaggerated. |
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| Busy Child |
| who in the hell makes facilities to produce hydrogen for helium balloons anyways? Iraq is hiding their stuff and playing games with the US to make them look bad. Sure, iraq cant beat americans with missles and guns, but they can make the US look like jackasses and beat them with their own ppl by making them distrust the ppl that run their own nation. |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
You missed the point of my post entirely ...
Bush would have had no legitmacy nor any reason to invade Iraq if Saddam had fully complied. Despite the administrations proven hostilities towards Iraq even before 9/11, it would have been virtually impossible for it to have invaded Iraq with absolutely no justification at all. So my primary argument still stands that Saddam is the biggest dumbass of them all ... simply look at his situation right now. |
I see what you're saying. But I think that the Bush would have still invaded Iraq under some other false pretense because (like ou said) the administration has a hard on for Iraq and Saddam. |
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| Galapidate |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
I see what you're saying. But I think that the Bush would have still invaded Iraq under some other false pretense because (like ou said) the administration has a hard on for Iraq and Saddam. |
Haha, "the Bush." But yeah, the Bush administration can always find some bogus reason. I was listening to CBS radio this morning and Bush claims the lack of WMD finding is because Saddam has been smuggling them out for the past decade! I mean jesus, if you knew that, why bother searching in Iraq?!? This is all just to buy more time until he can announce that he was lying.
www.votetoimpeach.org |
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| Galapidate |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
What? :eyes: Did Bush really say that? Which country were the Iraqi WMD supposed to have been smuggled to? :conf:
I'm asking because the Debka website claimed long ago that Saddam had had WMD co-operation with Syria for a decade (Debka also claimed that Baathists escaped to France :rolleyes: ). Hopefully Bush is not referring to that "information" :crazy:
BTW, the last time Neocons were making up propaganda against Syria, it was NOT meant to hide their deception in Iraq, but to use as an EXCUSE to invade Syria. Bush stopped Neocons then, even though their invasion plans were already ready. But what will happen this time? :nervous:
The Bush Administration has passed the point where they don't even attempt to make plausible pretexts. Part of the public is obviously addicted to believing any of their lies, up to a point where even the tiniest detail of the lies is fiercely defended. So I'm afraid it may be quite pointless to try expose the WMD deception if half of the public don't want to listen. |
Man, that is exactly what I heard. Then they aired a little of some speech he recently made saying how over the past 10 years, since the first Gulf War, Saddam has been hiding his weapons, until the point that now, when we look for them, they aren't there. |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
(Debka also claimed that Baathists escaped to France :rolleyes: )
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:stongue: :stongue: :haha: :haha: |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
However, not all critics of the current US Administration are Anti-Americans or principled guys. During this war, the Anti-War Camp joined forces with both American and European supporters of secular Realpolitik (that's how I became Anti-War ;) ). Realpoliticians know that Saddam has been a deceiver and a potential future threat. They don't hesitate to play dirty themselves, and approve the use of Machiavellian methods when necessary. The problem for them has not been that the US Administration exaggerated the WMD situation. The main problem for them was Neocons' goal of an irresponsible American Hegemony.
So when they bring up the WMDs now, they are not criticizing, but rather trying to impeach Neocons by referring to a technicality, and also telling the great masses of ordinary voters not to blindly believe what Neocons say.
PS. I don't currently believe that a large-scale war in Iran is likely. It might happen, but it's also possible that the US resorts to propaganda and special operations only. The only reason which might trigger a war is if Iran is indeed on the verge of building a nuclear bomb, or more likely, if Neocons are desperate to change Iranian regime before Neocons may lose their Pentagon positions in the next Presidential Elections. Anyway, the recent American threats against Iran are worrying because they look like a standard preparation to aggression.
PPS. Neocons now claim themselves to be Conservatives, but that's not accurate. Guys like Pat Buchanan are true Conservatives. Top Neocons have admitted that they only shifted a bit towards Conservatism after starting their political careers as "Liberals who were mugged by reality". Wolfowitz used to be a Democrat backing Henry Scoop Jackson. So this was an untypical American invasion because its main ideologists were not very Rightist nor Conservative. |
It appears that we just have different personal philosophies.
also, just because a person supported the war, doesn't mean they're a 'neo-conservative". Seems like you're pigeon-holing people. |
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| Dj_Irish |
Read in my daily newspaper this morning that Bush said in a recent speach that the WMD has been taken and/or destroyed by looters.
All these "explanations" seems to get pretty desperate as of late :rolleyes: |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
Read in my daily newspaper this morning that Bush said in a recent speach that the WMD has been taken and/or destroyed by looters.
All these "explanations" seems to get pretty desperate as of late :rolleyes: |
Wait...haven't the explanations always been acts of desperation? |
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| Dj_Irish |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
Wait...haven't the explanations always been acts of desperation? |
Hey...after taken into account previous statements I must say they have! :p |
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| LiquidX |
| LoL!! And only Bush has said that..anyways, americans will still believe that.. I bet ya! |
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