|
jock stein
|
View this Thread in Original format
| chesco |
Why is it that alex ferguson gets held up as some kind of god cos he won the champions league and jock stein is completely forgotten about south of the border.
Jock stein was the greatest football manager britain has ever seen and it's about time he was given some recognition for his work with celtic fc.
he took us to the european cup final and won us the cup, with an all british team, which is more than can be said for ferguson who had to rely on a norweigian to bag him his trophy.
it's a disgrace that he is not mentioned more for footballing awards.
jock stein = legend. |
|
|
| Xavier |
yeah and when can Bob Paisley be knighted, he won almost the same amount of trophies in half of Ferguson's seasons with Utd.
And of course when can Shankly be knighted? |
|
|
| PacMan |
| quote: | Originally posted by chesco
which is more than can be said for ferguson who had to rely on a norweigian to bag him his trophy. |
uhm whats wrong with THE NORWEGIAN? |
|
|
| chesco |
nothings wrong with him.
but the fact is ferguson had to rely on a large proportion of foreign talent to win his cup wheras stein won 9 league titles in a row and the european cup with an all british team. and was the first manager in britain to do so.
which is now completely unrecognised by anybody other than celtic supporters. |
|
|
| TheMightyCad |
It was not an all British Team....It was all Scottish.
Every player in the team was born within 30 miles of Celtic Park.
Jock Stein was never knighted because he was considered too working class for that type of honour. Nowadays money talks, hence Fergie getting it.
The acheivement by Jock Stein was far higher considering the quality of teams Celtic had to beat, not to mention the fact that Fergusons team cost god knows how many millions to put together. We must not forget the fact that Jock took Celtic on a 9 year winning streak in the league against a team that won a European Trophy and others who got far in Europe (unlike these days). |
|
|
| chesco |
my apoligies.
the fact that it was an all scottish team just highlights the fact that he deserved to be knighted. |
|
|
| PacMan |
| you cant really compare them too, cuz transfer markets all that has changed... |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
| I'd say Bobby Robson is the best manager Britain has ever had, most of his achievements are forgotten outside Newcastle, like the fact he won the UEFA Cup with Ipswich Town. Even his time as England manager doesn't get the credit it deserves, his side were denied by the hand of god and by penalties 4 years later. But we're both biased so it doesn't matter. |
|
|
| TheMightyCad |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
I'd say Bobby Robson is the best manager Britain has ever had, most of his achievements are forgotten outside Newcastle, like the fact he won the UEFA Cup with Ipswich Town. Even his time as England manager doesn't get the credit it deserves, his side were denied by the hand of god and by penalties 4 years later. But we're both biased so it doesn't matter. |
People always forget that inn the "Hand of God" game, the great man also scored one of the best world cup goals ever. |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
| I don't think many people forget that to be honest. Some people might forget it was the same game, but it's probably his most famous goal. In England people remember the agony of the 'hand of god' but in the rest of the world I'd imagine his other goal is his most famous. |
|
|
| chesco |
| quote: | Originally posted by PacMan
you cant really compare them too, cuz transfer markets all that has changed... |
yes you can.
the fact that teams such as man utd have the whole world to pick and choose from nowadays, and in steins era he had men from glasgow just heightens his acheivement.
bobby robson is good but not the same calibre as jock stein. end discussion. |
|
|
| Xavier |
Manchester United's recent domination of the Premier League Championship has underpinned the claims of Sir Alex Ferguson's legion of supporters that their man is the greatest football manager of all time.
Ferguson supporters point simply to the number of trophies and titles won in a glittering career stretching back over three decades, from the mid 1980s with Aberdeen to the new millennium silverware that glistens in the vaults of Old Trafford. It's a persuasive argument.
By contrast, Liverpool supporters will argue forcibly in favour of the far more gentlemanly Bob Paisley, who secured six top flight league titles for Liverpool in half the time it took the irrascible Ferguson to amass the same number at Old Trafford.
But cold hard logic does not determine greatness in any sport, and football is no exception. Football, by it's very nature, is a passionate and emotional experience, and loyalties owe much to tribal affiliations and the early indoctrination of the young and impressionable mind.
Ask any Nottingham Forest supporter who was the greatest manager of all time and he will say Brian Clough. Arsenal fans might offer Herbert Chapman, Bertie Mee or George Graham. What about Tottenham's Bill Nicholson, Everton's Harry Catterick and Leeds United's Don Revie ? Nor should we confine any shortlist to those who have won shedloads of trophies. What about the managers who haul unfashionable small clubs from the lower divisions to the top or to unlikely cup triumphs ? Is there no legitimate claim for these guys ? Watford supporters ( Graham Taylor ) may say so, and so might those of Swansea City ( John Toshack ) or Wimbledon ( Dave Bassett / Bobby Gould ). And what about those who work tirelessly bringing through young stars of the future whilst simulataneously bringing stability and relative prosperity to their own small time club ? Step forward Crewe Alexandra's Dario Gradi.
Stan Cullis had the foresight to take his Wolverhampton team into European battle before anyone else in England saw the possibilities. Alf Ramsey took an unfashionble club ( Ipswich Town ) to the title and then guided England to World Cup success and while we're talking about England, is the much vaunted title of best ever manager confined only to those who managed in England ? There must be hundreds of managers across the world most of us have never heard of who could lay legitimate claims. In fact we need only peek over the border into Scotland to find one of the greatest names of football management, a name no one could argue with. Jock Stein took Celtic to nine titles in a row and took the first British side ever to European Cup glory, with a Celtic team full of Scottish born players.
Of course, the Scots have always shone brightly in the English game. One, a particluar favourite of mine, won nothing in his first ten years of management, failed to win the European Cup and yet would figure high on my list for the Best Manager Of All Time. You can read all about him at shankly.com. Why Shankly you may ask ? In all honesty, I couldn't give a satisfactory answer other than to say that there are surely clues to be found by comparing the state of a club before the managerial arrival with it's subsequent health after the managerial departure.
As we have already noted, football devotion cannot be analysed in logical terms. Why do thousands of sane people stand on the terraces of no hope clubs week after week, pouring their hard earned money into the bottomless pit that is your average football league club ?
So, lest we continue to go round in circles, let's confine the argument to Paisley and Ferguson. Let's also assume that the best way to measure success is to look at the respective accumulated trophies, disregarding Charity Shields.
Ferguson has amassed a staggering 25 cups in 27 years of management. Between 1974 and 1978 in spells with East Stirlingshire and St. Mirren he won nothing. In the next 8 years between 1978 and 1986 he won a glorious 9 trophies with Aberdeen and of course since then has won 16 with United between 1986 and 2001. Of the 25, 10 have been league titles. Paisley on the other hand won 14 in 9 years at Liverpool, 6 of which were league titles.
So, on the plus side for Ferguson we could say:
He's won 25 cups to date, 11 more than Paisley;
He did it with 2 different clubs, both north and south of the border;
His starting point at Aberdeen and at Manchester United was far lower than Paisley's at Liverpool.
On the plus side for Bob Paisley we could say:
His trophy wins per year average is far greater than Ferguson's.
He won the European Cup three times.
He never had the advantage of managing the world's richest club.
Liverpool's starting point when he took over was so high partly because of the groundwork Paisley had himself done in the boot room. Three of a kind
Furthermore in Bob Paisley's favour is the legacy of success he left behind him at Anfield. The following season after his departure, Joe Fagan guided Liverpool to the first treble in their history with a side largely fashioned under Paisley ( this is not to denigrate in any way Fagan's achievement in managing those players to that unique success ). That Paisley was able to step back in an advisory capacity to help nurture the fledgling managerial career of Kenny Dalglish a couple of years later ( without in any way hampering the young manager ) is futher testimony to his greatness.
It remains to be seen what sort of legacy Sir Alex leaves behind him at Old Trafford. It cannot possibly be as assured as the one Paisley left at Anfield, but we shall see.
And so on and on it goes, argument and counter argument.
Look at the match by match record, the goals for and the goals against. Where does it all lead ? Does a 7:0 win over a bunch of Finnish part-timers beat a 0:0 draw in the Nou Camp ? Does a Liverpool win over Everton equal a Manchester United win over Manchester City ? What about the times when the managers went head to head ? In 1980 Paisley's Liverpool and Ferguson's Aberdeen met in the European Cup. Liverpool won 1:0 at Pittodrie and 4:0 at Anfield. What does this tell us ? Anything ?
We come back to the inescapable conclusion that hard facts and statistics alone cannot win this sort of argument. Both men managed different clubs in different circumstances. They both started out in management in 1974, clashed briefly in that European Cup tie in 1980, but clearly have not run parallel managerial careers. Any statistical comparison is therefore unscientific and flawed from the word go. We come back to the gut feelings, the individual loyalties of the respective fans. Opinion, it would seem, is all.
Incredibly, both of these clubs can boast another worthy candidate each to the title of greatest ever manager. Shankly's great adversary for many years was United's Sir Matt Busby, and many would regard Sir Matt and Shanks as greater than Sir Alex and Bob. ( Isn't it irritating that we have to use 'Sir' prefixes when referring to the Manchester United duo and not the Liverpool guys ? Why is that ? ).
In conclusion, I would love to prove that Bob Paisley was the greatest manager of all time. If I couldn't do that I would love to prove it was Bill Shankly, but I know I can't. I can argue passionately and sincerely for my own particular favourites but supporters of Leicester City, Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers, Newcastle United, Barnsley, Tranmere and Dagenham & Redbridge will all have their own ideas too. Perhaps we should just acknowledge the greatness of both Ferguson and Paisley ? After all, I would hope that supporters of both clubs would graciously acknowledge the feats of both men.
... but if you ask me, I'd pick 'Sir' Bob over the knighted one every time. Bob Paisley - Manager Of The Millennium. |
|
|
|
|
