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Pioneer DJM600 for $85 . . . is this legit? (pg. 2)
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| Nemesis44 |
Please don't take this as a flame as I have only the best intentions in mind.
I too have read up on this and strongly urge people to leave this well alone.
First point of concern and I quote:
"1) Is this legal?
Yes you are buying E-books, and as our free gift you are placed into a matrix to receive a free item. You are not buying into the matrix."
This is often done to evade paying the proper taxes that are applied on all such items. This is also worded in this way as it's actually illeagal in some countries to buy into a matrix/pyramid scheme. A law created for our protection from scammers.
It is true that you are protected from losing your $85 to a certain degree. However, the maths should also lead you to see that it doesn't take a genious to figure out that there is always someone at the bottom of the pyramid who will most likely never get their mixer although they may get their money back if they contact pay pal or visa in time. However there is a time limit within credit law that says you have to dispute the charge within a certain time frame for the claim to be valid.
This I know to be true as I used to work for a major credit card company working with this type of problem amongst others (Before I started Djing full time). I have investigated a hell of a lot of fraud that has been commited in this way or similar to know all of the ins and outs and saw it get much worse as the internet got more popular. Making things seem legit is how these guys survive. This is naturally a shame for anyone who is genuine but I can promise you that the majority are not.
It can't not be pyramid. They have just dressed it up a little and called it matrix. Unless 15 people just randomly decided to scrape together for your mixer it has to be or the maths simply do not work. Unless you are the first person to sign up, there will have to be some system of alocation that will always be some form of pyramid scheme and in this one you are actually worse of than in a standard pyramid. Unlike some of these schemes, you don't have to solicit contributions on your own behalf even if they do encourage it. But then again perhaps it has already begun given that it's appeared on these forums?
Here's a thought.
Imagine that you are the 15th person to put in $85.
You have just helped the first guy get his mixer (hooray for him).
You are now 15th in line to get the mixer. Nice or is it? If each person before you also needs 15 people to sign up it would take 225 people to sign up before you see your mixer. This still might not sound so bad given that it's a nice big planet that we live on with quite a lot of DJs etc. But what if you are 225th... do the maths? You may find yourself waiting longer than you expected. In that time a lot can happen in the world of DJ technology. Models get discontinued, new designs take over from the old etc. what happens then?
While Pioneer make some good equipment not everyone wants it. Not everyone has heard of that site either, so suddenly the odds are stacking up against you.
This guy may well be legit but this sort of scheme is not sustainable in the long run. He may also refund you if you so ask. Or you might have paid for his new condo in Florida.
While I wish you no ill will GQMr2 and sincerely hope that you get your mixer, I would strongly recomend that you look into it further just to protect yourself. Find out what your dispute timeframe is with your card. And if they say they don't have one, push them on it because they all do.
If something seems to good to be true... it usually is (as they say).
Hope it all works out for you.
Cheers
Nem |
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| Dj Flesch |
Just to set the record straight on how this scheme works, it is NOT a pyramid scheme (but it will work like one). A pyramid scheme works as described above, such that you need an exponentially increasing number of people to make it work and there are levels under each person. I think the typical pyramid scheme only works through like 13-15 levels before you run out of people in the whole world to sign up and make you money. This however, is NOT a pyramid scheme. As they said on the site, it is a linear scheme so that if I am the tenth person to sign up, and the list is 10 people long, then yes, I just helped the person who was first on the list get their mixer. In addition, the site has made $100 or whatever that specific number may be. But, what does this mean for me? There are still 8 people now ahead of me and all of the money in the pot is spent on the first guy's mixer and the profits for the site. So in order for the second guy (now the first) to get his mixer, 10 more people have to sign up. You are still 9th, but now there are 19 people on the list and only two will recieve thier mixer. This list has to grow by 10 people for the top person to get his product.
The difference from a pyramid scheme may be subtle, but it is still different. Is it possible to get your mixer? Sure, but depending on how far down you are on the list, you may never get enough people to sign up to get you to the top. The problem here is that once you put your money into the pot and push up the next guy to get his mixer, the money you put in is already spent. Fat chance of getting a refund from money that gets spent the second you put it into the pot--money that you think is going toward YOUR mixer!
Not only this, but as it said on the website, you are BUYING a ebook. If you try to dispute the charge as fraud, you will loose because they specifically tell you on the site that you are not buying a place on the matrix, you are not buying a chance to win a turntable or mixer. You are buying an ebook and therefore if you don't get your mixer, that was never part of the purchase in the first place. You'll be out of your $85 or $150, not have a new mixer and be stuck with a crappy ebook which tells you all about how to promote the company that just ripped you off!
Before you think about buying into this plan, just write out a couple of "cycles" on paper like I did and see if there is a legitamate plan or not. |
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| Nemesis44 |
Well put Flesch.
Kind of what I was trying to say, but you just managed to put it into English for me ;)
Cheers
Nem |
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| GQMr2 |
| yea you're definitely right on everything you said...i guess im pretty close to the top tho so ill stick it out for a while.. my point was that for 85$ its a decent gamble for me. but not everyone has that extra cash laying around...and no i'm not taking anything you guys said as flame... |
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| WatchDog |
| quote: | Originally posted by GQMr2
yea you're definitely right on everything you said...i guess im pretty close to the top tho so ill stick it out for a while.. my point was that for 85$ its a decent gamble for me. but not everyone has that extra cash laying around...and no i'm not taking anything you guys said as flame... |
I run that site the one of your members referred to-- MatrixWatch.org. My opinion on your decision to "stay in the matrix" is that you have a right to do what you want with your money.
However, I think that you are keeping your money in that site because you still see it as an investment, and if you were aware of a few other "X" factors, you would try to get your money back ASAP.
The truth of the matter is that you are not gambling your $85... You are throwing it away. I don't believe that you are a foolish or gullible person though. You just are under the same perceptions as many other matrix customers have been, and as I once was.
Goraks.com is as pure a matrix site as they come. Trying to circumvent laws against Pyramid scams by selling eBooks. Here are the big problems with this site in particular. To read about the general problems with these matrix sites, visit my website..
1. Goraks uses PayPal. This is a big problem because PayPal has policies against matrix sites, and they often freeze the accounts. When an account gets frozen, the owner of the matrix site loses that money, and he/she is not able to pay out the people who cycle. I believe that PayPal will freeze Goraks' account soon. Once your 30-day window of opportunity expires (from time of purchase), you can kiss that money goodbye as well.
2. Goraks claims to be 100% legal, yet they are offering a chance-based promotional program (matrix list) in exchange for the purchase of an eBook. Most state laws define this as an illegal lottery, and the state of Tennessee even recently categorized these matrix sites as illegal pyramid schemes IN SPITE of their ponzi-proof, ebook "trick". To be legal, Goraks.com must offer a spot in their matrix list WITHOUT requiring you to purchase any eBooks. Ever notice how Publisher's Clearing House has a checkable box on their return envelopes that states, "No, I don't want any magazines, but please enter me into your prize drawing anyway." The reason for this statement is so they are not sued for running an illegal lottery.
** I have spoken with MSNBC and KTLA's "CyberGuy" about this, and you can access these interviews through MatrixWatch.org **
3. Most of these matrix sites are getting sued left and right, along with the pay companies which aid and abet them. You can download the lawsuits at MatrixWatch.org. In fact, PayPal is included in a recent lawsuit against another matrix site, EzExpo.com. I do not understand why the owner of Goraks.com is still using PayPal in spite of this. He must not be aware of the schematics of his market. Not a good sign of his knowledge of issues that may affect his customer base.
GQMr2, I hope it does not sound like I am flaming you for your decision. As I said before, it is completely up to you. I just don't want to see you lose your money. One of the assumptions that many matrix customers have is that when their name cycles, they will receive their prize. Do you know that the largest matrix site on the internet has not paid any of their cycled members since January, 2003? Like I said, once their merchant account gets frozen, they will halt the payouts (by default). You will likely not see a dime.
My advice? Try to get a refund from either the site owner, or from PayPal via their 30-day policy. You will be glad you did. |
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| punchline |
| Nobody could say it better than that. Thank you WatchDog for explaining it fully for us. I think it might be a good idea to make this post sticky and maybe merge it with that one about safe eBay bidding for folks that come on this board for the first time before buying equipment. It may save someone's hard earned money, and that would make it worthwhile. |
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| WatchDog |
MANY matrix sites use eBay to advertise and draw in new customers. The problem is that their auctions are very misleading, and they violate eBay rules concerning "information auctions".
A MatrixWatch.org poll recently concluded that nearly 75% of current, matrix customers heard about the scheme through an eBay auction. :eyes: These auctions have presented a big problem that we have risen up to prevent.
We set up a group back in May, 2003 called the "eBay Watch Dogs". This dedicated group of members monitors the eBay auctions nearly 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for "matrix-scam auctions". Since May, we have shut down approximately 30,000 scam auctions, and had nearly 450 scam-sellers kicked off eBay.
If any of you sees a matrix auction on eBay, then you can report it in our "eBay Watch Dogs" sub-forum at MatrixWatch.org.
You can also report scam auctions through eBay's Safe Harbor forums.
If any of you have any comments or suggestions then feel free to stop by Matrix Watch let us know how we can help. :) |
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| WatchDog |
| quote: | Originally posted by specialK
thats the thing, theoretically, if you were the first person on the list, and 10 others sign up, there would be enough money in the "matrix pool" to buy it and you would receive the mixer legitimately for $85 . . . everyone else is just screwed, because theres no way anyone else wants to sign up after that. |
I agree with your point entirely. The matrix sites are definatley designed to reward the early birds. Let me just point out though that many matrix sites do not hold to their side of the bargain.
If you go to MatrixWatch.org and look at all the posts in the "Site Closures" sub-forum, you will see TONS of stories about matrix sites opening up and closing down within a short amount of time. In fact, some people even open 4 or 5 matrix sites, advertise aggresively, collect the money, and RUN!!
Many times, this is an effort planned precisely around the scheduled pay-out dates of the pay companies. This way, the customers are not able to request chargebacks or refunds through their Credit-Card companies. The money is GONE! Of course, this is a personal theory that I hold, and it has not been proven yet. I just thought that it was strange that SO MANY matrix sites would close around the same time of month, every month. I realized that the pay companies disbursed the funds to their merchants at that exact same time, and my theory grew from there.
Regardless, even though the early investors would seemingly be rewarded the most from the matrix sites, it is often not the case. Many times, these matrix sites are opened with the predetermined purpose of defrauding people.
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P.S.- Be on the lookout for new members to your forum who share stories about how they are "moving up on the lists" or "have received their prize". Oftentimes, these people are supporters of the site or the owners themselves trying to manage their public image. |
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| Nemesis44 |
Greetings WatchDog,
First of all great posts. Loads of good info there.
My own personal opinion is to always stay clear of other peoples money making schemes in most cases in life. The majority are self serving whatever they are.
My question is this:
Given that there are a ton of matrix sites out there that keep popping up and then disapearing, would it be a fair assumption to suggest that it is usually the same people behind them (with exceptions)? Or is this something that tends to see new offenders spring up?
I have a hunch that it's probably the same people behind most of them but thought you might know the difinitive answer.
Kind regards
Nem |
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| WatchDog |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nemesis44
Given that there are a ton of matrix sites out there that keep popping up and then disapearing, would it be a fair assumption to suggest that it is usually the same people behind them (with exceptions)? Or is this something that tends to see new offenders spring up?
I have a hunch that it's probably the same people behind most of them but thought you might know the difinitive answer.
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You are very insightful. I have found that sometimes a person will open 5 or 6 matrix sites, collect a lot of money, and then shut them all down. The matrix sites are often poorly designed and sometimes you will see that they have the same wording and graphics. If you go to one of the many "voting" sites for these matrix schemes, RidingonTop.com, you can click on the top 10 sites. Notice how many of them look the same, and how a few of them have the ".reallyrules." extension in their URL. Total scam.
We have several lawsuits available for downloading at my site, but only members can download them. In those lawsuits are the lists of several matrix sites, and altogether they total around 120-150. That is how many matrix sites we have helped remove from the internet, and there are about another 25 that shut down on their own initiative. In addition, several of my members banded together to report sites to state government authorities, and they had a big breakthrough in Tennessee.
Thanks for taking an interest! I really enjoy your members here at Trance Addict. I look forward to more correspondance from you all! |
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| DJ_NRG |
| Let us know how it goes...or doesn't go, as this case will likely be. |
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| WatchDog |
Doesn't go? I don't understand the last post.
Just an update for you all. Goraks.com had their account frozen by PayPal, but now they have opened a new account through which they are taking orders.
The big question is how will their recoup their losses in the first frozen account? They need that money to pay off cyclers, and I don't know how they can continue to operate without a huge deficit. Some matrix-site owners have dealt with this by taking out mortgages on their homes, but I doubt that this guy will go that far.
The old frozen account was "[email protected]", and the new account is "[email protected]".
This is the information I have received from those who report sites to PayPal. |
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