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Some political differences (pg. 2)
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
I do. What is the point your trying to make? |
err i decided to put it all in one post heh. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
The argument against that would be that if the playing field were equal and the wealth was equally distributed their wouldn't be individuals that lack the motivation to support themselves. It's the lack of oppurtunity and unfair situation to start with that makes people lose the morivation. |
So then what you want is more akin to Socialism? No thanks, I'll stick with Democracy/Capitalism.
| quote: | | Originally posted by OccriderI'm an individualist ... I don't expect any free lunches for myself, and I'm not expecting anyone to demand a free lunch from me. |
Perhaps well summed by the statement:
"I swear by my life, and my my love of it, that I will never live my life for the sake of another man, nor will I as another man to live for the sake of mine."
-A.R. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Do you have any siblings? If you do, are they EXACTLY like you? Same drive, motivation, passion, etc.? Those -ups in high school who didn't study, didn't work, didn't care ... you think they would have the same motivation as a smart kid who knows what he/she wants and works to get it? Did those ups have missed opportunities somehow someway"? There are plenty of people who making something of themselves from nothing and do it through their own blood, sweat, and tears. For the mass majority of people who claim that they are in the position they are in because of the "system" they are denying themselves personal responsibility and personal accountability. The system is not designed to gauruntee your path to success and excellence. It is there to provide you with the opportunities to capitalize on so that you can make something of yourself. Does the system ever actually up and not present people with the necessary opportunities they need? Yes, and that's why I'm not completely against welfare.
Life's not fair ... depending upon your luck, you can be born rich and have everything or be born poor and have nothing. You can be born beautiful or you can be born ugly. If you're born ugly are you going to resent all the beautiful people and demand that they give you some of their looks? No of course not, you make do with what you have and you use your other skills to surpass them in life. |
no life is not fair, but i can't see why you shouldn't try to do it more fair.. the big difference with sweden and US is that in sweden everyone can go to the best schools, have good health care etc no matter how rich, how beautiful or whoever they are. it doesn't make all people ups in high school, it just make life a bit easier for the people who wheren't born lucky (smart, rich etc). A welfare state do not make the poor rich, it just make their life a bit better... |
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| Trancer-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Isn't everybody a libertarian?:D
Interesting article. I also appreciate a lot about the Objectivist philosophy. |
I'm technically unaffiliated now that the Libertarian party is no longer recognized by the Maryland State Board of Elections.  |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
no life is not fair, but i can't see why you shouldn't try to do it more fair.. the big difference with sweden and US is that in sweden everyone can go to the best schools, have good health care etc no matter how rich, how beautiful or whoever they are. it doesn't make all people ups in high school, it just make life a bit easier for the people who wheren't born lucky (smart, rich etc). A welfare state do not make the poor rich, it just make their life a bit better... |
So it's solely the fault/responsibility of the government/system to make sure that regardless of peoples' choices and motivations, they are entitled to all of the same ends? The way you describe it, it sounds like A Brave New World. You're walking a very dangerous line that I'm not sure you see the potential darkside of. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have to respectfully disagree. You're basically saying that the ends justify the means, and that a person can eat their cake and have it to (yes, it's supposed to be reversed if you grasp the philosophical argument). |
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| Trancer-X |
Laissez-Faire
"In every government on earth is some trace of human weakness, some germ of corruption and degeneracy, which cunning will discover, and wickedness insensibly open, cultivate and improve."
- Thomas Jefferson Notes on Virginia, 1782 |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
no life is not fair, but i can't see why you shouldn't try to do it more fair.. the big difference with sweden and US is that in sweden everyone can go to the best schools, have good health care etc no matter how rich, how beautiful or whoever they are. it doesn't make all people ups in high school, it just make life a bit easier for the people who wheren't born lucky (smart, rich etc). A welfare state do not make the poor rich, it just make their life a bit better... |
And I'm all for improving the school situation to ensure that opportunity is available to everyone. However, I'm in full agreement with Shakka and Trancer. The entitlement of the many do not supercede the rights of the individual. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
So it's solely the fault/responsibility of the government/system to make sure that regardless of peoples' choices and motivations, they are entitled to all of the same ends? The way you describe it, it sounds like A Brave New World. You're walking a very dangerous line that I'm not sure you see the potential darkside of. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have to respectfully disagree. You're basically saying that the ends justify the means, and that a person can eat their cake and have it to (yes, it's supposed to be reversed if you grasp the philosophical argument). |
please explain that potential darkside a bit more....
regardless of peoples congenital skills (whatever it is richness, smartness, consentrationness (new word? :p) etc) they should have the same right to basic services in society. as i see it it is an individual right to have as good health care etc as the rich persons. All systems but welfare systems is violating your right as a human. It's not like everyone get the perfect life without doing anything, it's just about the basic stuff. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
please explain that potential darkside a bit more....
regardless of peoples congenital skills (whatever it is richness, smartness, consentrationness (new word? :p) etc) they should have the same right to basic services in society. as i see it it is an individual right to have as good health care etc as the rich persons. All systems but welfare systems is violating your right as a human. It's not like everyone get the perfect life without doing anything, it's just about the basic stuff. |
I don't buy into the "right to healthcare" that you're talking about. I dont see anyone arguing the "right to equal car insurance". Why is it someone else's responsibility, or moral duty to ensure that some other complete stranger makes the right decisions to take care of themselves. Bad things happen to good people all the time, but why does that make it the moral obligation of society to pick up the tab and make sure that person has health insurance. Since when is my life someone else's responsibility. I think there's a huge difference between same "rights" to basic services vs. same opportunity to access basic services. Again, I just don't buy the argument that the ends justify the means. If you break altruism down to the very core it basically says that it is a person's moral duty to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of someone else, but that it's wrong to ask someone else to sacrifice themselves for your benefit. It simply doesn't make sense. It is a philosohpy that dictates my death for the life of another with it not being my decision to make.
I don't have a problem with charity or sharing, per se, however it is wrong for one person to give something to another if the cost is detrimental to the giver. I need to reference my philosophy books for better explanation, but at the core I simply can't allow myself to sell out. My goal while I am on this Earth is to do the best I possibly can and to be the best I can possibly be. The better I do for myself, the more likely the better those around me will be. Being the best I can be will make me the most productive, satisfied person I can possibly be. I alone am ultimately responsible for my own happiness and that is why I must live to be the best that I can be, for me.
This is too much of a rant than a well thought out response. I need to get some old thoughts together and organize it to give you a more thorough philosophical/political response.:)
Oh, and Brave New World is a book by Aldous Huxley in the early 1900's that visualizes a futuristic utopia. It's amazing how many of his 'predictions' are very visible in our societies today. It also does a good job of pointing out a lot of the dark side to the utopian society. I think it's a bit like 1984 in a way, though I really haven't given 1984 a good read. Huxley's book is very short and an easy read, and is often referenced in movies if you catch the references. If you already knew this, then ignore my commentary--I couldn't tell from your remark whether or not you were familliar with the book. Give it a read if you haven't heard of it before. It's very different and very insightful. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
I've always thought Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" is a good example of the perversity of extremist egalitarianism. |
Wasn't that the short story about the kid who they equipped with all sorts of physical handicaps so that he would be no more able than anyone else? It sounds very familliar. In any event, I never realized it was a Vonnegut story.
I'm sure there are more than a handful of novels and short stories which delve into what happens in said societies. |
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| occrider |
| *Remembers back to that Neal Boortz commencement address I posted that got everyone up in an uproar* :) |
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