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So, how is Afghanistan doing? (pg. 3)
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| NYCTrancefan |
Well okay
1. You cannot demonstrate clearly your MSF source that Afghanistan is in worse shape than before the U.S. went there. So I have nothing to respond to with that. You heard one individual speak on his behalf of the situation, when was this, where was this, what region of Afghanistan was this, no one knows, I am sure he cannot speak for the entire nation of Afghanistan,
2. America got rid of a government that shot women in cold blooded execution in public stadiums, Women could not wear lipstick, have hairstyles, go to school. Men were not allowed to cut their beards, People could not listen to music. Anything other than strict allegiance and practice of Islam as interpreted by the (Taliban) was not permitted. Now you tell me how that society was good, before the war to oust the Taliban.
3. America along with the international community has committed millions of dollars to the reconstruction of Afghanistan, that is not really a lack of care on the part of America now is it. The fact is the Taliban or remnants of them as well as wannabes are committing cold, calculated killings to intimidate those who are attempting to provide help to people in the far off provinces outside of Kabul. Now you tell me why is this so, do they fear the creation of a stable Afghan society that wants no part of them.
4. To say that how the UN presence in Afghanistan is even relevant to this discussion is pretty naive, because it is the duty of the UN as the chief international organisation to administer its various agencies in a capacity that can be beneficial to a particular nation that is attempting to recover from a warring conflict. The U.N can help to build schools, provide medicine, help in the political process of governmental creation, handle the return of refugees from neighboring countries, provide international peacekeepers, etc. I would hope by now you see the relevance.
5. You state that the situation has become worse, you never show however the ways in which it has become worse. Admittedly the Opium Trade has gotten worse, but unless the U.S becomes brutal and imposes Taliban punishement on the Opium growers, in which case Human Rights Groups would scream bloody murder, how do you propose they stop this production. Do you still hear of the starving Afghanis that live in the border regions of Pakistan and Iran, no because they are returning to Afghanistan. You make it seem like women are insignificant in your suggestion that they still cannot get an education in Afghanistan today, maybe you should research harder and you will figure that life without the Taliban is much more improved for women. It may not be perfect but in a culture of male domination of women, what is. The process towards making women an equal part of Afghan society is a work in progress, like the rest of the nation as a whole.
6. As a history undergraduate and foreign policy studies graduate student, I am fully aware of the U.S government and its role in the political history of many nations around the world. To apply this as one of your rational for perceived U.S failure in Afghanistan however is to leave yourself open to many different criticisms, The U.S did not create the Afghan government but instead this process was under the auspices of the United Nations, when it comes to the political process.
7. America did not behave in any manner that was void of the way in which cooperating with the international community was required in this particular conflict, This requirement was one to work with the international community in rebuilding Afghanistan. To ignore this and simply blame America is indeed selective in thinking.
and the last quote I gave my response. Hope this text is clearly laid out and cohesive in my point. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
The reason the UN isn't being critized in the same way as the U.S. seems painfully obvious to me? they don't have an obligation to in the same way the U.S. does.
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it's not that obvious to me, i feel the UN has the same if not a greater obligation to the security of the world, but since they have proven they can not hold this responsibilty they deserve the majorty of the blame. Even when taking afghanistan into consideration, wasnt it kofi annan himself that said the 9/11 attack was an attack on the whole free world and peaceful loving people? even though the taliban are not al-qeada, they most certainly promoted and gave al-qeada their home there. Despite the US being the largest military provider in the war the offensive was on behalf of the free world, not the US alone. thus the UN deserves as much blame if not more then the US.
I agree with NYCTranceFan on what his says. Even though the anarchy and lawlessness that grips most of the rural afghanistan is not a good thing in its one light, it is far better then the strict rule the taliban enforced. Just because the taliban government had a solution to current day afghanistan's problem (lawlessness) it does not mean it is the better of the two.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid."
- Dwight Eisenhower |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| Heh, funny how many americans bashed UN prior to the Iraqi war, and are now demanding for it's greater involvement. Anyway, the UN is not some mystic superpower, it's simply an association of countries all over the world. It doesn't have a military, and it's budget is as big as the leading countries in the world allow it to be. For the UN to take a stronger stance, the leading world powers, and mainly the US (as it is a primary superpower), should take a stronger stance too. The US can't just say we want UN to take care of things and we'll go away now, simply because US is a part of the UN. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Heh, funny how many americans bashed UN prior to the Iraqi war, and are now demanding for it's greater involvement. Anyway, the UN is not some mystic superpower, it's simply an association of countries all over the world. It doesn't have a military, and it's budget is as big as the leading countries in the world allow it to be. For the UN to take a stronger stance, the leading world powers, and mainly the US (as it is a primary superpower), should take a stronger stance too. The US can't just say we want UN to take care of things and we'll go away now, simply because US is a part of the UN. |
Bah ... I've never liked the UN and I never will, nor do I have any delusions of it being capable of accomplishing much of anything.
/resident un hater |
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| iLoveDave |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Bah ... I've never liked the UN and I never will, nor do I have any delusions of it being capable of accomplishing much of anything.
/resident un hater |
Shame on you Occrider...hating the UN...why don;t hate something worthwhile....if you know what I mean....sorry I couldn;t stay away.. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by iLoveDave
Shame on you Occrider...hating the UN...why don;t hate something worthwhile....if you know what I mean....sorry I couldn;t stay away.. |
Why not? The UN, the supposed governing body of international world affairs, has sat idly by doing nothing over some of the most horrendous tragedies of the 20th century that it comes as no surprise that it has become nothing more than a political playground for world powers jockeying for position. My viewpoints on the UN have long been voiced in the past if you care to do a search for "ineffective institution" :). Certainly, some of its flaws are as a result of its constituents, however, the very design of the organization has enabled its constitutents to abuse the organization's efforts to acheive its end goals ... peace and order. Therefore we should not continue to rely on a faulty organization to solve the world's problems, because it will not accomplish that goal, while we blindly walk around placing our trust in the belief that it will. |
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| iLoveDave |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Why not? The UN, the supposed governing body of international world affairs, has sat idly by doing nothing over some of the most horrendous tragedies of the 20th century that it comes as no surprise that it has become nothing more than a political playground for world powers jockeying for position. My viewpoints on the UN have long been voiced in the past if you care to do a search for "ineffective institution" :). Certainly, some of its flaws are as a result of its constituents, however, the very design of the organization has enabled its constitutents to abuse the organization's efforts to acheive its end goals ... peace and order. Therefore we should not continue to rely on a faulty organization to solve the world's problems, because it will not accomplish that goal, while we blindly walk around placing our trust in the belief that it will. |
Can I ask you...Do you think the US is better at bringing peace and order to the world? I think the UN is a joke too.the UN sercurity council and it's veto power? But it's ok for the US to Veto as it will but when it really comes down to it it really doesn't care because the US does as it wants anyways. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by iLoveDave
Can I ask you...Do you think the US is better at bringing peace and order to the world? I think the UN is a joke too.the UN sercurity council and it's veto power? But it's ok for the US to Veto as it will but when it really comes down to it it really doesn't care because the US does as it wants anyways. |
No of course not. There needs to be an institution that is a healthy mix between the current UN and the current US. An insitution that is forceful in action when it needs to be. But has the UN ever led the way in anything without the pushing and prodding of the US? We all saw it "lead" the way in Serbia. After the disaster in Somalia and the US retracted into its shell from African affairs so to speak, did we hear a peep from the UN during the entire Rwandan affair ... despite direct warnings to the Secretary General far in advance? Is the UN even interested in N. Korea? Going farther back in time, I could write a whole diatribe on the UN's effectiveness, or gross incompetance, in warding off each of the Arab-Israeli wars. The UN only intervenes in affairs when it serves the interests of its major constituents. And much like I stated before, they are decisive in their indecisiveness. When I think of the UN, I think of Italian politics in the 1920's. |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
Well okay
1. You cannot demonstrate clearly your MSF source that Afghanistan is in worse shape than before the U.S. went there. So I have nothing to respond to with that. You heard one individual speak on his behalf of the situation, when was this, where was this, what region of Afghanistan was this, no one knows, I am sure he cannot speak for the entire nation of Afghanistan,
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Well, being that he was an aid worker, -in Afghanistan- i suppose that he probably knows more about the situation than you personally do. and being that DWOB no doubt has records on various social issues where they actively work, in French, i would believe him before you for the time being.
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2. America got rid of a government that shot women in cold blooded execution in public stadiums, Women could not wear lipstick, have hairstyles, go to school. Men were not allowed to cut their beards, People could not listen to music. Anything other than strict allegiance and practice of Islam as interpreted by the (Taliban) was not permitted. Now you tell me how that society was good, before the war to oust the Taliban.
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So women cant wear lipstick, or have 'haristyles'...hmm the same societal norms you are eschewing in their case are apparent in your Western outlook. And if there was a complete lack of music whatsoever in society i would be surprised, but again you mean music that you or i would appreciate which is quite clearly not the case around the world, especially in primarily Muslim countries.
quite simply, Afghanistan was good if you were a good Taliban Muslim - afterall that is where they chose to live for the most part.
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3. America along with the international community has committed millions of dollars to the reconstruction of Afghanistan, that is not really a lack of care on the part of America now is it. The fact is the Taliban or remnants of them as well as wannabes are committing cold, calculated killings to intimidate those who are attempting to provide help to people in the far off provinces outside of Kabul. Now you tell me why is this so, do they fear the creation of a stable Afghan society that wants no part of them.
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Money doesnt really equal care or work. Do you have exact facts and figures about how that money was appropriated? my guess is that to know for sure is impossible, and most of it went to keep Hamid in power, with his own army - since he is obviously not the most popular mor influential man in Afghanistan of late.
I dont have facts and figures about Taliban 'cold, calculated killings' as warlords are driven more by power and money, something the Taliban never truly emphasized. yet again you are most likely stating Taliban=al-Qaeda.
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4. To say that how the UN presence in Afghanistan is even relevant to this discussion is pretty naive, because it is the duty of the UN as the chief international organisation to administer its various agencies in a capacity that can be beneficial to a particular nation that is attempting to recover from a warring conflict. The U.N can help to build schools, provide medicine, help in the political process of governmental creation, handle the return of refugees from neighboring countries, provide international peacekeepers, etc. I would hope by now you see the relevance.
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Can the Un really do much in such a factionalized country? They would most likely get killed if they went into the non-Karzai regions.
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... Do you still hear of the starving Afghanis that live in the border regions of Pakistan and Iran, no because they are returning to Afghanistan.
You make it seem like women are insignificant in your suggestion that they still cannot get an education in Afghanistan today, maybe you should research harder and you will figure that life without the Taliban is much more improved for women. It may not be perfect but in a culture of male domination of women, what is. The process towards making women an equal part of Afghan society is a work in progress, like the rest of the nation as a whole.
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You dont hear of them because the world doesnt listen, especially the US. What do you think? that one of the poorest countries on the planet suddenly rebounded?
Again, maybe they get education and status, but mostly in the US influenced areas (ie not a large area).
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6. As a history undergraduate and foreign policy studies graduate student, I am fully aware of the U.S government and its role in the political history of many nations around the world.
To apply this as one of your rational for perceived U.S failure in Afghanistan however is to leave yourself open to many different criticisms, The U.S did not create the Afghan government but instead this process was under the auspices of the United Nations, when it comes to the political process.
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I hardly see how your education gives you unlimited access to what is correct and factual.
Ok, so the UN made the government without the US? Huhmm, doubtful - what about all that money we so graciously offered? Weve been supporting regimes for decades and most of them are only now coming back to bite us in the ass, Saddam, bin Laden, etc.
| quote: |
7. America did not behave in any manner that was void of the way in which cooperating with the international community was required in this particular conflict, This requirement was one to work with the international community in rebuilding Afghanistan. To ignore this and simply blame America is indeed selective in thinking.
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To claim that the US only acted in the best of interests and will complete success - and further without proof is in some ways more fallacious that anything dj adagnitio has said|
if one side were complete moral and right here there would be no discussion |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Heh, funny how many americans bashed UN prior to the Iraqi war, and are now demanding for it's greater involvement. |
hehe i'll take any chance i can get to bash the UN ;)
but anyways, i'm asking for greater involvment in afghanistan not so much iraq. though in the case of iraq understand the hypocricy of US bashing the UN prior to the iraq war and wanting their help afterwards. |
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| NYCTrancefan |
Originally posted by biznology
Well, being that he was an aid worker, -in Afghanistan- i suppose that he probably knows more about the situation than you personally do. and being that DWOB no doubt has records on various social issues where they actively work, in French, i would believe him before you for the time being.
1. So you would believe information on a source that cannot be distinctly verified as to where in Afghanistan he worked, when he worked, hmm makes me think twice about your response to this one.
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So women cant wear lipstick, or have 'haristyles'...hmm the same societal norms you are eschewing in their case are apparent in your Western outlook. And if there was a complete lack of music whatsoever in society i would be surprised, but again you mean music that you or i would appreciate which is quite clearly not the case around the world, especially in primarily Muslim countries.
quite simply, Afghanistan was good if you were a good Taliban Muslim - afterall that is where they chose to live for the most part.
2. Nowhere in my statement did I ever mention nor imply that they had to be the norms of Western society, my point in this statement was that if women couldn't even have an hairstyle for fear of punishment it demonstrates clearly the lack of freedoms available in this society, when it comes to them being able to make their own personal decisions on such minor subjects, and once again you misquote me and insert words into my mouth, I never asserted that the music they should listen to has to be Western, as a matter of fact I enjoy listening to traditional Islamic music because I love the vocals and instruments that are a part of it, example - I love listening to the call to prayers. What is wrong in listening to music of their own history and traditions of Afghan society.
Afghanistan was good if you were a good Taliban Muslim, wow, this is a pretty disturbing statement. So if you supported the suppression of women to be fully equal in society, if you believed that women can be taken out and stoned and shot on a whim by the Taliban government, if you feel that it is criminal to have your beard trimmed, then I guess you are an upstanding Taliban citizen of Afghanistan. Essentially if you believed in a society that severley lacked justice and fairness for its citizens, and basic protections from loss of life and limb then you must be an upstanding Taliban citizen, my question is would you want to be a non supporter of the Taliban in such a society. Where is the room for critique, tolerance and accountability in such a society.
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Money doesnt really equal care or work. Do you have exact facts and figures about how that money was appropriated? my guess is that to know for sure is impossible, and most of it went to keep Hamid in power, with his own army - since he is obviously not the most popular mor influential man in Afghanistan of late.
I dont have facts and figures about Taliban 'cold, calculated killings' as warlords are driven more by power and money, something the Taliban never truly emphasized. yet again you are most likely stating Taliban=al-Qaeda.
3. Funny you should mention money doesn't equal care or work, no, but the actions of the aid agencies do, why tell me are the aid workers being targeted, they don't carry weapons, they cannot defend themselves, instead they are attempting to help out a downtrodden people, but the brutal Taliban who you so tacitly claim created a stable Afghan society are resorting to the methods that they know worked for them while in power. Those methods were fear, intimidation and suppression through torture and murder of anything that differed from their select ideology of their religion.
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Can the Un really do much in such a factionalized country? They would most likely get killed if they went into the non-Karzai regions.
4. With this rational in hand can the U.S do much in a factionalized country, if the U.N with its mandate as an international body cannot do much then how can one nation, no matter how large or powerful it may be, especially if its actions in Afghanistan were so treachorous in removing the Taliban, as some propose. Surely the people should rise up and want the U.S. presence gone from Afghanistan if the Taliban were so good, do you hear the cries in Afghanistan for their return from the poplulace. I think I saw a teardrop somewhere in Kandahar for them. :haha: :haha: :haha:
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You dont hear of them because the world doesnt listen, especially the US. What do you think? that one of the poorest countries on the planet suddenly rebounded?
5. No but what I do think is that the dedictated men and women who are there helping out in the UNHCR, MSF, ICRC, Mercy Corps have something to do with this "rebounding" or lack thereof that you mention, but of course, not surprisingly the U.S. isn't listening to the hunger and starvation in Afghanistan, strangely however why hasn't this been documented by any of the large newsmedia around the world, which I read everyday, key being around the WORLD-BBC, TSR.ch in Switzerland, SwissInfo, Deutsche Welle, TV5, RAI, Radio Netherlands, Radio Sweden, Human Rights Watch, AL-Jazeera who would have certainly mentioned it, not just the U.S media alone, should you say they never cover these things.
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Again, maybe they get education and status, but mostly in the US influenced areas (ie not a large area).
6. I believe that in order to grow a tree you need to plant a seed, why not start in the U.S. influenced areas, the Germans have set up a Goethe Institut in Kabul, and more international cultural organisations are working on establishing schools for young children to attend. This does not mean that regions outside of Kabul cannot eventually be under the same process as time goes on. "Rome wasn't built in a day."
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I hardly see how your education gives you unlimited access to what is correct and factual.
7. I never claimed my education gave me UNLIMITED access to anything, but in relevance to this particular subject on political influence of the U.S. on foreign diplomacy and creation of other governments from history, I feel very confident in my ablility to express that clearly. Because I have taken the time to study and research, the history of Latin America, South Asia, and the U.S. in extensive detail as a history major. I could cite endless examples of the U.S involvement in Chile, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Haiti, Guatemala, El Savlavdor, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. I feel however very much like I am lecturing by bringing this up, which I have no desire to do to others, unlike the individual who originally attempted to remind me of the role of the U.S in Central and South American political history. I would hope that having a degree in History and studying Foreign Policy counts for something, however an expert it does not make me as you sarcastically proposed.
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Ok, so the UN made the government without the US? Huhmm, doubtful - what about all that money we so graciously offered? Weve been supporting regimes for decades and most of them are only now coming back to bite us in the ass, Saddam, bin Laden, etc.
8. Once again you highlight the United States as THE supporter of involvement in a sorted history of Western policies towards these conflict regions. Did the French have no involvement with Saddam Hussein, didn't the Russians, didn't the Germans. Oh and by the way Bin Laden was fighting that good ole' US enemy, the Soviets as you of course know, why wouldn't the U.S as a superpower not have supported the Mujahedin against another superpower, would the Soviets have done any different. We all remember the Chinese standing by while North Korea was being overrun by South Korean and U.N forces including the U.S.:rolleyes: See what you want, and don't see what you don't want to, it is your choice.
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To claim that the US only acted in the best of interests and will complete success - and further without proof is in some ways more fallacious that anything dj adagnitio has said|
9. This is about the third or fourth time that you put words into my mouth, doesn't make good for a political discussion, I never said the U.S acted in the best interest of anyone or anything, if the U.S had attempted to hijack and maintain total control over events in Afghanistan we would have heard the same criticisms that justifiably exist with Iraq. What i stated is that the U.S undertook this process with the backing of the U.N and thereby was fully required to work under that particular structure as mandated by the Security Council members and to work with fellow powers of the U.N. to create a stable and secure Afghanistan, this responsiblity did not fall soley to the United States, but to other members of the U.N as well.
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if one side were complete moral and right here there would be no discussion
10. I wish that the individuals and nations that offer a non-stop critique of the United States would remember this adage as well.
I can continue this discussion as long as need be, for what those that have a differing viewpoint are arguing about the contents surrounding the role of the U.S. in Afghanistan, is much more suitable for Iraq instead. They of course feel differently. |
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| ProDiGaL |
| wow you have too much time..... |
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