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Finally...a real Kerry - Fonda pic (pg. 2)
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| rizen |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
One thing that bothers me about Kerry is what he did with the medals he earned in Vietnam. Shortly after returning home and joining the anti-war movement he "threw away" his medals in ceremony held by protestors. He was denouncing the government involvement in Vietnam and wanted to show he would have nothing to do with it. Where are those medals today? Displayed in his Senate office. He now uses those same medals he "threw away" to garner support from veterans and the military and as a memorial to the past military service he at one time denounced. Maybe its just me, but that really hits me the wrong way. |
I agree with this.
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Funny how when Clinton was running, the fact that he was a known draft dodger was downplayed by liberals as completely irrelevant. Now they're attacking Bush for serving in the National Guard, and accusing him of being AWOL without a single shred of proof? |
The reason why it is being attacked is because Bush is using it as leverage to say he will be though on defense.
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Since when did this issue ever matter to liberals? Why are they such 2 faced hypocrites regarding the service issue? |
It isn't much of an issue for me, but I hate the hypocracy of saying democrates/liberals/etc are chicken when in fact both sides are chicken.
Heh, they say he was there because he was paid, but no records show he was actually there and no one remembers him being there, including a his drill instructor from an interview I heard. So essentially they are releasing records that are pretty much saying he got paid for not showing up. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by rizen
Heh, they say he was there because he was paid, but no records show he was actually there and no one remembers him being there, including a his drill instructor from an interview I heard. So essentially they are releasing records that are pretty much saying he got paid for not showing up. |
This proves absolutely nothing except that you dislike Bush and are willing to support an argument conjured out of thin air to justify your contempt for the man. So what is the point of this? |
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| rizen |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
This proves absolutely nothing except that you dislike Bush and are willing to support an argument conjured out of thin air to justify your contempt for the man. So what is the point of this? |
Oh I do dislike Bush, and Kerry as well. I bet Kerry didn't serve in the military either, he hasn't released his pay stubs! LOL
| quote: | ARF stands for Army Reserve Force, and among other things it's where members of the guard are sent for disciplinary reasons. As we all know, Bush failed to show up for his annual physical in July 1972, he was suspended in August, and the suspension was recorded on September 29. He was apparently transferred to ARF at that time and began accumulating ARF points in October.
ARF is a "paper unit" based in Denver that requires no drills and no attendance. For active guard members it is disciplinary because ARF members can theoretically be called up for active duty in the regular military, although this obviously never happened to George Bush.
link |
Bush should release his entire record. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
I was listening to an interview on Imus with Kerry's biographer.
Actually the ribbons he threw belonged to another soldier that was injured, and he told Kerry to throw them for him.
He kept his medals. |
This is true, but the event happenend in 1971. He didn't tell anyone they were his "friends" medals until 1988. Why did it take him 17 years to tell anyone that they were not his medals but his "friends" medals? |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
This is true, but the event happenend in 1971. He didn't tell anyone they were his "friends" medals until 1988. Why did it take him 17 years to tell anyone that they were not his medals but his "friends" medals? |
Why does it really matter?
I think the involvment of the US govt in Vietnam raises more questions than either candidates records - or how evil Jane Fonda is.
It sounds like a bunch of McCarthyites in here| |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
Why does it really matter?
I think the involvment of the US govt in Vietnam raises more questions than either candidates records - or how evil Jane Fonda is.
It sounds like a bunch of McCarthyites in here| |
It's that at one time he used Vietnam medals, when it was socially and politically the thing to do, as a way to protest the government and the military. Now, because it is the social and political thing for him to do, he uses those *same* medals, to help his political career. I just don't like the fact that those "evil" medals he denounced in the past are now displayed proudly to help him politically. |
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| imokruok |
Here's some more information on how the NVA used Kerry's group and others to fight their war in the US.
| quote: | Tuesday, Feb. 10, 2004 10:25 PM EST Gen. Giap: Kerry's Group Helped Hanoi Defeat U.S.
The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry with helping him achieve victory.
In his 1985 memoir about the war, General Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S. - according to Fox News Channel war historian Oliver North.
That's why, he predicted on Tuesday, the Vietnam war issue "is going to blow up in Kerry's face."
"People are going to remember Gen. Giap saying if it weren't for these guys, [Kerry's group], we would have lost," North told radio host Sean Hannity.
"The Vietnam Veterans Against the War encouraged people to desert, encouraged people to mutiny - some used what they wrote to justify fragging officers," noted the former Marine Lieutenant Colonel, who earned two purple hearts in Vietnam.
"John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands," North said.
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| imokruok |
Nice...it only took a day for at least one tiny little piece of to hit the fan. There's some powerful stuff in this article.
| quote: | Photo of Kerry with Fonda enrages Vietnam veterans
Washington Times | 2/10/04 | Stephen Dinan
A photograph of Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts together with Jane Fonda at an anti-Vietnam war rally in 1970 in Pennsylvania has surfaced on the Internet, angering veterans who say his association with her 34 years ago is a slap in the faces of Vietnam War veterans.
The photograph, taken at a Labor Day rally at Valley Forge, has been circulating across the Internet, particularly among veterans. It was posted Monday on the NewsMax.com Web site.
Mr. Kerry spoke at the 1970 rally, the culmination of a three-day protest hike from Moorestown, N.J., to Valley Forge, which featured a speech by Miss Fonda and a reading by Hollywood actor Donald Sutherland.
"When he stands up with Jane Fonda, someone that is so notorious and hated by veterans, and Tom Hayden, and a couple of others as well and supports their agenda," Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, California Republican, said yesterday, "it diminishes the service some of us almost gave our lives for, and the over 56,000 people that lost their lives —it slaps their families in the face."
Mr. Cunningham was the first pilot to qualify as an ace in the Vietnam War, shooting down five enemy airplanes.
"I think it's his right, but it kind of upsets you," Mr. Cunningham said. "He had honorable service, but it's a shame someone would let politics rule their life, instead of their principles."
Mr. Kerry, a Navy lieutenant, commanded patrol boats on South Vietnamese rivers and was wounded three times. On his return to the United States, he turned against the war, and at the time of the Valley Forge rally, he was beginning to gain notice as one of the leaders of the organization Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said yesterday Mr. Kerry should not be associated in the public mind with Miss Fonda and her later trip to Hanoi, where she was photographed sitting astride a North Vietnamese antiaircraft gun.
"John Kerry and Jane Fonda were just acquaintances," Ms. Cutter said. "What's important to understand here is two things: He met her before she went to Vietnam, and he did not approve of her very controversial trip."
She said Mr. Kerry took part in the antiwar movement in order to bring U.S. troops home quickly.
"John Kerry served his country bravely," she said. "He was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service, and he praised the noble service of his fellow servicemen and women. After coming home, John Kerry worked to end the war so his fellow soldiers could come home, too."
Mr. Kerry testified in 1971 before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, however, citing accusations that American soldiers in Vietnam routinely committed atrocities such as beheadings, killing children and razing villages. He did not present evidence of these claims.
John Hurley, national director of Veterans for Kerry, said that the antiwar movement included a mix of people and that Mr. Kerry should not be grouped with all of them.
"There were a lot of people protesting that war, some of whom he would agree with and some of whom he would disagree with," said Mr. Hurley, who marched with Mr. Kerry in Washington in 1971. "I don't think he had any control of that. It was the issue that was dominating. Like a lot of other vets coming back, we were angry and frustrated [that] guys were dying in Vietnam for no reason."
Mr. Kerry's protesting "saved more lives than not," he added.
Still, the photograph has spread quickly among Vietnam veterans browsing the Internet.
"If you mention Jane Fonda's name to a Vietnam veteran, it's a lightning-rod reaction," says Ted Sampley, publisher of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch and staunch opponent of Mr. Kerry. "She was supposed to be antiwar, but she clearly sided with one of the belligerents, which precludes her from being antiwar. She was a partisan."
Mr. Sampley first saw the photograph Monday on the Internet and purchased it for his online newsletter. He saw it pop up elsewhere, and he soon began receiving e-mail messages from readers who had seen the photograph.
"This picture exposes just how close John Kerry was to Jane Fonda," he says. However, he says the photograph doesn't reveal anything that many veterans of Vietnam didn't already know.
"Joining the antiwar movement was possibly the worst thing he could have done to the soldiers still in the field," he said. "He basically gave aid and comfort to the enemy."
The Vietnam war, though it ended more than three decades ago, has emerged as a central issue in the presidential campaign, as it did in previous campaigns. In 2000, President Bush faced questions about his service in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam war years. Those questions have been raised again this year.
Bill Clinton was criticized in 1992, when it was reported that he used political pressure to avoid the Vietnam-era draft after he ignored a written agreement to accept a slot in the ROTC at the University of Arkansas. He further was cited for his involvement in the antiwar movement as a student at Oxford University in England, including his work in coordinating the largest antiwar, anti-U.S. demonstration on foreign soil.
Mr. Kerry tells Democratic audiences at campaign appearances that he will be able to stand up to Mr. Bush on the issue. He frequently cites Mr. Bush's appearance on the deck of the carrier USS Abraham Lincoln as misleading voters.
"I know something about aircraft carriers for real," he says.
Rep. Sam Johnson, Texas Republican, who spent nearly seven years in a prisoner-of-war camp in Vietnam, said yesterday the photograph of Mr. Kerry with Miss Fonda will hurt him nevertheless.
"I think it symbolizes how two-faced he is, talking about his war reputation, which is questionable on the one hand, and then coming out against our veterans who were fighting over there on the other," Mr. Johnson said.
Mr. Johnson recalled that his North Vietnamese captors played recordings of Miss Fonda telling U.S. troops to give up the war. "Seeing this picture of Kerry with her at antiwar demonstrations in the United States just makes me want to throw up."
•Jerry Seper and Charles Hurt contributed to this report.
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| occrider |
Come now ... that pic is almost as irrelevant as the silly awol bush bashing that's been going on. Are we to infer from that picture and Kerry's opposition to the war that:
A) Kerry knowingly aided and abetted the enemy by excercising his constitutional right to protest?
B) That Kerry in some omnipotent fashion predicted Jane Fonda's visit to Vietnam two years into the future and tacitly gave his support for her by blurredly appearing in a photograph 3 rows from her?
If so, then one can apply these similar assumptions:
A) Bush was a coward and a deserter by pulling strings and political connections to escape from combat.
B) By accepting his national guard position instead of volunteering to go abroad, Bush aided and abbetted the the enemy by failing to provide his much needed flying skills to the united states air force for use in combat.
Furthermore, I should probably watch my back, because I might be in a picture with the next hitler or something which will forever doom my political future and render me a "traitor". |
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| occrider |
Hey guys guess what ... you know those guys churchill and roosevelt? Real heroes right?
WRONG! Turns out they're nothing but a bunch of communist s. I suggest instant re-writes of the history books to reflect this new evidence:
;)
(I refused to use the Rummy-Saddam picture because that's another irrelevant photo, constantly used that I hate ... although using that photo here would probably do a better job of emphasizing the rediculousness of using old photos in modern contexts to make a "point") |
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| Shakka |
What to make of these pictures? :p
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| DaveSZ |
| quote: | Originally posted by imokruok
Nice...it only took a day for at least one tiny little piece of to hit the fan. There's some powerful stuff in this article. |
It looks like you read the paragraph that said what you wanted to hear, and ignored the rest of the article.
;)
There are pictures of US soldiers holding mutilated body parts of Vietcong soldiers, and Kerry's testimony was based on accounts of other veterans.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Hey guys guess what ... you know those guys churchill and roosevelt? Real heroes right?
WRONG! Turns out they're nothing but a bunch of communist s. I suggest instant re-writes of the history books to reflect this new evidence:
;)
(I refused to use the Rummy-Saddam picture because that's another irrelevant photo, constantly used that I hate ... although using that photo here would probably do a better job of emphasizing the rediculousness of using old photos in modern contexts to make a "point") |
Hehe true. :) |
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