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iSpy
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| igottaknow |
| Recently in the news someone was caught spying on the US. Whenever this happens I always think, What's the difference between gathering intelligence and spying. Seems hypocritical for governments to have agencies dedicated to spying on other countries and act outraged when they catch someone spying on them. Government/Police even like to spy on their own citzens and when you complain they say if your not doing anything wrong you should have a problem. Why doesn't that arguement apply to them? One other thing. Why do the individuals who get caught get harsh punishments and the country who he works for gets off scott free? |
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| Yoepus |
there is a difference to when another country spies on you and 'gathers intelligence'.
The later is usually reserved for gathering publicly available information on that nation (such as collecting GDP stats, maps, address, names, ranks, etc) the former is reserved for all else 'private data' and is collected typically via dobious means.
That said, undoubtedly every nation tries to spy on one another, and for this their are 'spy rules' where they usually just catch the spy, imprison him and wait to exchange him when one of their spies is caught by the other team. Sort of like a game of tag but with cooler gadgets. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
Damn naughty cousins!:
| quote: | Accused Spy Is Cousin of
White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card
By Matthew Daly
The Associated Press
Thursday 11 March 2004 | 9:27.pm.est.us
WASHINGTON - The woman charged with working for the Iraqi spy agency is a cousin of President Bush's chief of staff, Andrew Card, and has held a variety of jobs in journalism and on Capitol Hill.
Susan Lindauer, 41, worked in the press offices of four Democratic members of Congress. She also worked for Fortune magazine, U.S. News & World Report, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and Fox News.
Her father, John Lindauer, was the Republican nominee for governor in Alaska in 1998. His campaign unraveled because of charges of campaign finance violations to which he pleaded no contest.
Susan Lindauer is a 1985 Smith College graduate who describes herself as an anti-war activist.
Gary Gambill, editor of the Middle East Intelligence Bulletin, an online publication dealing with Arab politics, said Lindauer sent him a copy of her 1998 deposition in litigation related to the December 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.
In the deposition, she said Libyan officials had been wrongly accused of orchestrating the bombing and that Libya was entitled to "financial compensation for the economic harassment her people have endured because of these blatantly false accusations."
He said her arrest "raises questions about the validity of her deposition and its apparent attempt to exonerate Libya."
Lindauer started her congressional career in 1993 when she took a job with Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore. The next year she went to work for a second Oregon Democrat in the House - Ron Wyden. Two years later she joined the staff of Sen. Carol Moseley Braun, D-Ill.
After a brief stint at Fox News, she worked for Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., for a few months in 2002.
Lofgren said in a statement she was shocked by the arrest.
"To my knowledge, this former employee had no access to sensitive information," she said. "Obviously, I had no reason to think that she was involved in this alleged activity. I have had no further contact with her since she left my employ."
DeFazio said he has not spoken to Lindauer in more than 10 years. "We didn't part on the best of terms," he said.
Lindauer's neighbors in Takoma Park, Md., recalled her as friendly. Joao Luiz Vieire de Castro, 39, described Lindauer as "a regular American who walks her dog in the mornings and the afternoon."
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/8163706.htm
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:haha: |
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| igottaknow |
| I agree that agencies like the CIA gather intelligence, but they also employ spy tacticts as well, so to represent yourself a simply an "intelligence agency" is deceptive. My point is governments knowingly engage in illegal activity. btw, you think we have an exchange program with iraq. lol |
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| occrider |
| But she's a democrat! I always knew they were traitors! |
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| igottaknow |
Politicians love using specially crafted jargon to put a postive spin on it. After 9/11, officials often speak of improving our "Human Inteligence".
What do you think "Human Intelligence" is? |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
I agree that agencies like the CIA gather intelligence, but they also employ spy tacticts as well, so to represent yourself a simply an "intelligence agency" is deceptive. My point is governments knowingly engage in illegal activity. btw, you think we have an exchange program with iraq. lol |
I don't really understand what the argument is ... governments do face repurcussions from being caught for spying on foreign countries. They lose intelligence assets and they face international embarrasement. However, there is no international law against spying. There are however, domestic laws against treason. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
I don't really understand what the argument is ... governments do face repurcussions from being caught for spying on foreign countries. They lose intelligence assets and they face international embarrasement. However, there is no international law against spying. There are however, domestic laws against treason. |
My point is its hypocritical to treat a spy as a criminal if you engage in the same activity. It would be similar creating an agency to smuggle drugs out of the country and then prosecute ppl trying to smuggle drugs into the country.
btw embarrasing a country is a laughable deterent |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
My point is its hypocritical to treat a spy as a criminal if you engage in the same activity. It would be similar creating an agency to smuggle drugs out of the country and then prosecute ppl trying to smuggle drugs into the country.
btw embarrasing a country is a laughable deterent |
Well that's kind of the name of the game. Operatives become operatives knowing the risks of their actions full well. It's not like they're being taken advantage of here. So what would you advocate? Reduce human intelligence? Legalize treason? I'm not entirely sure what alternative you desire. Is this a debate on the ethical justification (or lackthereof) of state espionage?
And a souring of country relations is something of a deterrant ... plus the loss of a citizen. |
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| Shakka |
Ahhh...Remember Gary Powers...moron spy extraordinaire.
I agree with Occrider. Spying is the name of the game, and the chief risk is essentially that if you get caught, you're in the deepest of deep . Even worse if you're a double-agent. Spies must make a load of money.
It's all a big game of surveillance and evasion. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
It's not like they're being taken advantage of here. So what would you advocate? |
I think there are legitimate arguements for and against. My feeling is if we as a country decide to do it we should not take criminal action against other who do it to us. Fitting punishment would be to send said person back back to their patron country. We should be up front about what it is and use the same terminology, not calling it our human intelligence and their spying.
| quote: | | Is this a debate on the ethical justification (or lackthereof) of state espionage? |
I was just letting loose some ideas that were bouncing round my head today, but the main jist is the ethical justification.
The other idea is if spying is a criminal offense don't you think the country paying the spy is equally if not more responsible. For example, the US new policy on terrorism makes no distiction between the terrorist and the countries who give them support. Why is it when it comes to spying that the individual shoulders the entire wait of the punishment. Its like if i hired an assassin to kill you. Would it be fair to give the assassin a life sentense while embarrassing me for my punishment.
| quote: | | And a souring of country relations is something of a deterrant ... plus the loss of a citizen. |
Since they usually recruit spys from the country they're spying from they not losing a citizen if he/she gets caught. How does your souring deterrant explain iraq spying on us? |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
Fitting punishment would be to send said person back back to their patron country. We should be up front about what it is and use the same terminology, not calling it our human intelligence and their spying.
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Send them back to their patron country??? So they can tell their government about all of the secrets they found out when they were spying? How is this punishment??? If anything it seems like rewarding a spy for getting caught. I'm sure his/her patron country would give him/her a medal and a fat retirement package if that were to happen.
The problem is that the spy is the one who actually holds the secrets. Sure, his government holds some responsibility in the grand scheme of things, but the sensitive information is in posession of the spy himself/herself. |
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