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How difficult is composing trance compared to other music? (pg. 2)
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| dj-rob |
| I believe trance is def harder than hiphop... hiphop has vocals so you basically find some riffs stick them in there and re-arrange to the rappers delight. for a trance producer you are the band, you have to know percussion, melodic instruments (bass, lead etc), track layout, mixing, etc etc.. You do everything yourself (well a good producer does) and therefore it takes a lot of effort. Jazz/Classical and all those which are highly more complex are a different category than standard pop tunes. Euro-dance is another story ;) |
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| MrCowski |
Hip hip producing takes skill to do well, but the problem is that it's audiance usually doesn't even care if the beat is done well, just that it sounds ok. It also doesn't take to much work....after you get a music loop (be it synths, strings, or whatever), all you have to do is vary the beat for the whole track.
I would imagine Rock is a lot like writing trance, as you have defined chords and flow of the track.
Top 40 pop songs are more complex than you would think...though the music sucks, many of the songs sound like they took awhile to make (though some sound like they were just ripped out of somewhere else, too) |
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| DJ-Fuq |
| quote: | Originally posted by ElantraGT
sorry but "in my opinion" you both seem like "electronica fan-boys" who don't know a lot about producing as a whole :p . no offense, please. :) |
well ur wrong
| quote: | | There's a difference between producing and writing, and the topic poster was asking about composition. But since hardly anyone in this thread paid attention to that... |
I didnt, but it doesnt really matter anyway.
Making ur own sounds is part of the composition and is more important than the melody imo. Musicians who play 'real' instruments dont have to do that. Thats like taking a synth and using the same preset everyone else uses. |
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| Lephaid |
| Trance can be composed as complex or minimally as you like it to be (like any genre, including classical, rock, etc), so it varies on what your tastes are. |
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| ElantraGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
well ur wrong
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I don't see it that way when you continue to post things like:
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Making ur own sounds is part of the composition and is more important than the melody imo. Musicians who play 'real' instruments dont have to do that. Thats like taking a synth and using the same preset everyone else uses. |
This really does make you look like an "electronica fan-boy" :p
Last time I checked, a synth was a "real" instrument unless you are using soft synths :p. And lots of people can hear a synth sound and know which synth produced it :rolleyes: Plus there are way more brands/styles of "real" instruments than synths, each one sounding different. Myself and every other guitarist I knew/know go through countless distortions, amps, strings, effects, and anything else we can think of to get our very own, perfect sound. And it can change from song to song, to be honest. :p
But for the sake of argument, take two guitarists with identical guitars and amps.
Guitarist A changes the tubes in his amp, tweaks his amp's EQ settings, adds active pickups, changes out the pots in his guitar, uses different strings, a different pick, adds an active onboard EQ to his guitar, and changes the bridge material. Now he sounds totally different than Guitarist B, while using the "same equipment" :). Don't get me started on effects or the materials the guitar is made from...
It's obvious you might know a bit about electronica, but are in the dark about most other genres, and that's okay. Just be willing to learn, and don't limit your knowledge. :) Somehow I don't think you'll care, and still feel that "I am wrong", but that's okay, too. Prove me wrong if you like. Open your mind and realize that electronica and other genres are a lot more closely related than one might like :) |
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| DJ-Fuq |
| quote: | Originally posted by ElantraGT
Last time I checked, a synth was a "real" instrument unless you are using soft synths :p. |
Well duh. But synths are more than that. Unlike the 'real' instuments (that produce sound through physical movement) i was talking about that can only make 1 type of sound.
| quote: | And lots of people can hear a synth sound and know which synth produced it :rolleyes: Plus there are way more brands/styles of "real" instruments than synths, each one sounding different. Myself and every other guitarist I knew/know go through countless distortions, amps, strings, effects, and anything else we can think of to get our very own, perfect sound. And it can change from song to song, to be honest. :p
But for the sake of argument, take two guitarists with identical guitars and amps.
Guitarist A changes the tubes in his amp, tweaks his amp's EQ settings, adds active pickups, changes out the pots in his guitar, uses different strings, a different pick, adds an active onboard EQ to his guitar, and changes the bridge material. Now he sounds totally different than Guitarist B, while using the "same equipment" :). |
But hes not using the same equipment, and the difference in sound will be very, very small compared to that of a synth when completely rebuilt. Seriously, ur argument is weak.
| quote: | | Don't get me started on effects or the materials the guitar is made from... |
All that applies to synths too, as u should know if ur as smart as u think u are.
Ur deliberately ignoring the fact that a synth can make a trillion times the amount of sounds that any other instrument can. They can sound and they can sound amazingly good. The skill it takes to program that synth and make a new sound that sounds great isnt even comparable to the effort it takes to pluck a string and make the best sound that that guitar will ever make.
| quote: | | It's obvious you might know a bit about electronica, but are in the dark about most other genres, and that's okay. Just be willing to learn, and don't limit your knowledge. :) Somehow I don't think you'll care, and still feel that "I am wrong", but that's okay, too. Prove me wrong if you like. Open your mind and realize that electronica and other genres are a lot more closely related than one might like :) |
Maybe u should learn not to make so many assumptions. Firstly ive been a drummer longer than ive had decks (10 and 8 years). Secondly i liked rock and metal for years before trance/techno/hard house etc. Thirdly my dad has been a guitarist for the past 50 years or something (some people think hes 1 of the best in the country, dunno about that tho :haha: ), all his friends and his 3 brothers are musicians and my brother plays about 5 instruments so im not exactly new to the world of music. |
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| azior |
fuq: do you really have so much trouble with synths? seems like that in your story... if you're no good with handling synths, don't compare it to real instruments, because that's 2 times harder...
i'm totally with ElantraGt, he sees things from different perspectives unlike most... trance is just easy compared to other styles of music...
the average trance track: a basic build-up, break, climax, en buildoff... a bassdrum, hihat, clap, percussionloop, lead, bassline, extra synth and pad... and there it is: your new hit... just because it's a style you like and it sounds 'phatt' doesn't mean it's hard to make it... |
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| dj-rob |
| quote: | Originally posted by azior
fuq: do you really have so much trouble with synths? seems like that in your story... if you're no good with handling synths, don't compare it to real instruments, because that's 2 times harder...
i'm totally with ElantraGt, he sees things from different perspectives unlike most... trance is just easy compared to other styles of music...
the average trance track: a basic build-up, break, climax, en buildoff... a bassdrum, hihat, clap, percussionloop, lead, bassline, extra synth and pad... and there it is: your new hit... just because it's a style you like and it sounds 'phatt' doesn't mean it's hard to make it... |
i agree to a point but dude, a producer does all of that and in a band you have numurous people that specialize in each aspect. And if you are listening to good trance that actually gives that 'entrancing' feeling then there was alot of work put into it. Its not like euro-dance (alice deejay, sammy) type stuff where the beat is the same thing and just different lyrics and riffs to match the lyrics. the 'real' trance producer does a ton of work, you have to agree with that. |
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| Omega_Blue |
I'm foremost a guitarist and drummer, I've just been recently dabbling in electronic production.
In my opinion, writing electronic music is just as tough as writing a piece for say the guitar. For me, it's easy to throw drums and a bassline together... but when it comes to melodies and all that, I can never think of anything that sounds good. The only reason I would say trance is easier to write is because most of the time (it seems to me, at least) all trance is is a melody that just gets looped over and over and over again. Drums, bass, added effects, pads, etc. pretty much just build the song up and make it a little more interesting. and they all have the same pattern too- drums... slowly build up to melody... then a breakdown... then another buildup/climax... then it ends. it's pretty plain when you think about it. |
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| dj-rob |
| a guitar doesnt loop just like a melody would? there are variations in both, its very similiar. |
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| DJ-Fuq |
| quote: | Originally posted by azior
fuq: do you really have so much trouble with synths? seems like that in your story... if you're no good with handling synths, don't compare it to real instruments, because that's 2 times harder...
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I dont really understand what u mean. What i was saying was that its hard to make a good synth sound. Maybe my definition of good is different to urs. |
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| ElantraGT |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
and the difference in sound will be very, very small compared to that of a synth when completely rebuilt. Seriously, ur argument is weak.
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You can admit you don't know anything about being a luthier any time, now...that guitar in my example wasn't completely rebuilt. There was more to be done... And everything I mentioned will greatly alter the sound. Totally rebuilt, it could sound like a completely different instrument.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
All that applies to synths too, as u should know if ur as smart as u think u are.
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| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Ur deliberately ignoring the fact that a synth can make a trillion times the amount of sounds that any other instrument can. They can sound and they can sound amazingly good.
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| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
The skill it takes to program that synth and make a new sound that sounds great isnt even comparable to the effort it takes to pluck a string and make the best sound that that guitar will ever make.
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| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Maybe u should learn not to make so many assumptions.
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What we have here is a classic case of "Pot calling the Kettle black". Tell me not to make assumptions after making a bunch of your own :p. That makes your argument so much stronger :rolleyes:
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Well duh. But synths are more than that. Unlike the 'real' instuments (that produce sound through physical movement) i was talking about that can only make 1 type of sound.
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More like 1 waveform. A "real" instrument is as capable of making any number of sounds as any synth out there. An electric guitar, for instance, is just a sine generator. That's it. Add any effect and filter you want after it. You think everything onboard a synth is the instrument? Modern synths are a combination of many specific effects, filters, and sound generators all working in unison to produce the desired result. Like old school modulars condensed down into a smaller package, and only so many ways to combine everything (or only one period) versus the unlimited combinability of the modulars of old.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
The skill it takes to program that synth and make a new sound that sounds great isnt even comparable to the effort it takes to pluck a string and make the best sound that that guitar will ever make.
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If anyone playing a guitar just "plucks a string" he is going nowhere real fast, and no one is going to listen to him...now, actually playing that guitar with any real skill takes a lot longer than you think. As you said, your dad has been playing for a very long time. And there is a signifigant difference between someone picking up a guitar for the first time "plucking a string" and someone like your dad plucking that same string. Programming synths comes much faster in comparison. I play guitar AND I program synths. I do both, which you do not (or did not mention, at least...). You merely know some people who play guitar, and that isn't nearly the same. I've been told by purely electronica listeners that the sounds I get from my synths are fat, bad ass, kick ass, sick, amazing, and it goes on...(call bs if you like, won't offend me)
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Secondly i liked rock and metal for years before trance/techno/hard house etc.
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Here, we are dead on :)
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Firstly ive been a drummer longer than ive had decks (10 and 8 years).
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If you wanna talk what we play and how long: Tuba for 7 years, taught myself piano, guitar, bass guitar (9, 7, and 9 years respectively). You got me on drums, though :). I couldn't play the drums if my life depended on it, arms and legs won't work with the pinache a drummer requires :). I admire you in that regard. :)I have to record others playing the drum beats I want, or do my own via real-time recording of samples or a real-time recording of a drum machine :(. But I learned to adapt. I have used soft synths since only September of '03 and got into hard synths back in January of this year. Not long in the electronic music, I must admit, but I like what I can do with this stuff. I've been writing and producing my own music for 5 years, now. No mention of synth programming is mentioned, so how can you make a claim as to how much skill is involved? (I will admit it is not easy by a long shot:D)
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ-Fuq
Thirdly my dad has been a guitarist for the past 50 years or something (some people think hes 1 of the best in the country, dunno about that tho :haha: ), all his friends and his 3 brothers are musicians and my brother plays about 5 instruments so im not exactly new to the world of music. |
This, however, is all moot.
I am not saying that making electronica is easy. By any means, it is just as hard as anything out there. Sometimes more difficult, even, as the electronic composer has a lot of stuff at his/her disposal for drums, bass, leads, melodies, effects (in a musical sense, not a physical effect unit), etc. I can agree with you on this, and I apologize if I came across a little strong. I'm just saying that as a composer and producer of both more "traditional styles" and electronica, I know that each has it's own hard places and easy places.
| quote: | Originally posted by azior
the average trance track: a basic build-up, break, climax, en buildoff... a bassdrum, hihat, clap, percussionloop, lead, bassline, extra synth and pad... and there it is: your new hit... just because it's a style you like and it sounds 'phatt' doesn't mean it's hard to make it... |
lol, I hate having to disagree with a supporter...
I'm not saying trance or any other genre is easy. They're not. My first electronica song sounded like popcorn popping, it was that terrible. I almost quit, lol. It just took the developing of a few different skillsets as far as writing the music went.
My only major disagreement with Fug is his opinion on sounds and the instruments that make them. Other than that, he seems like a stand up guy. We've both kept our debate fairly civil, and to me that means a lot. If he had started off by flaming/being an idiot i'd have zero respect for him and his opinions. His opinions are his own and he is 100% entitled to them :) |
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