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ABC Publishes New Prisoner Abuse Photos
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| Renegade |
Fairly disturbing:
| quote: | | May 19, 2004— ABCNEWS has obtained two new photos taken at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq showing Spc. Charles Graner and Spc. Sabrina Harman posing over the body of a detainee who was allegedly beaten to death by CIA or civilian interrogators in the prison's showers. The detainee's name was Manadel al-Jamadi. |
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/...tos_040519.html
Unless the Pentagon releases all the images they have in one go (as I feel they have a duty to do) I think that small leaks like this are just going to keep occurring, dranging the scandal out unnecessarily over several months. The new pictures:
Spc. Charles Graner:
Spc. Sabrina Harman:
Thoughts? Should all the pictures and video footage be made available to the media immediately? Will leaks like this continue if they're not? |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Fairly disturbing:
Unless the Pentagon releases all the images they have in one go (as I feel they have a duty to do) I think that small leaks like this are just going to keep occurring, dranging the scandal out unnecessarily over several months. The new pictures:
Thoughts? Should all the pictures and video footage be made available to the media immediately? Will leaks like this continue if they're not? |
I'm inclined to agree, and it seems a good number of GOP Congressmen agree as well. Two things could happen with the slow leakage of pictures and videos:
1. The scandal will grow and be a long-drawn out continuous process, further angering the Arab world and Iraqi citizens over a longer period of time
2. Americans will unfortunately become more and more numb to the harsh realities that these pictures/videos depict.
Even if the 2nd scenario unfolds, which may actually help the President in a strange way with U.S. public opinion polls, it does not take away scenario #1 with the Arab world and Iraqis, which we absolutely must be concerned about.
I'd love nothing better than to have Bush exposed and humiliated out of office, but this is bigger than a political and partisan issue. For the mere sake of our future credibility and foreign relations, we need to throw everything out onto the table for all to see so we can move on and salvage what image and credibility we have left. Even, for argument's sake, if this was just a handful of individuals performing these acts (which evidence suggests otherwise, but bear with me), and even if it is not the reality of our common interrogation practice (again evidence may suggests otherwise), it is the perception which is destroying our credibility, as is shown in Iraqi public opinion polls. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
Further evidence that this goes up the chain past the selected few individuals:
| quote: | Sergeant Says Intelligence Directed Abuse
By Josh White and Scott Higham
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, May 20, 2004; Page A01
Military intelligence officers at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq directed military police to take clothes from prisoners, leave detainees naked in their cells and make them wear women's underwear, part of a series of alleged abuses that were openly discussed at the facility, according to a military intelligence soldier who worked at the prison last fall.
Sgt. Samuel Provance said intelligence interrogators told military police to strip down prisoners and embarrass them as a way to help "break" them. The same interrogators and intelligence analysts would talk about the abuse with Provance and flippantly dismiss it because the Iraqis were considered "the enemy," he said.
The first military intelligence soldier to speak openly about alleged abuse at Abu Ghraib, Provance said in a telephone interview from Germany yesterday that the highest-ranking military intelligence officers at the prison were involved and that the Army appears to be trying to deflect attention away from military intelligence's role.
Since the abuse at Abu Ghraib became public, senior Pentagon officials have characterized the interrogation techniques as the willful actions of a small group of soldiers and a failure of leadership by their commander. Provance's comments challenge that, and attorneys for accused soldiers allege that the techniques were directed by military intelligence officials.
In an interview, Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, the commander of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq at the time of the alleged abuse, claimed that military intelligence imposed its authority so fully that she eventually had limited access to the interrogation facilities. And an attorney for one of the soldiers accused of abuse said yesterday that the Army has rejected his request for an independent inquiry, which could block potentially crucial information about involvement of military intelligence, the CIA and the FBI from being revealed.
Provance was part of that military intelligence operation but was not an interrogator. He said he administered a secret computer network at Abu Ghraib for about six months and did not witness abuse. But Provance said he had numerous discussions with members of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade about their tactics in the prison. He also maintains he voiced his disapproval as early as last October.
"Military intelligence was in control," Provance said. "Setting the conditions for interrogations was strictly dictated by military intelligence. They weren't the ones carrying it out, but they were the ones telling the MPs to wake the detainees up every hour on the hour" or limiting their food.
The 205th Military Intelligence Brigade's top officers have declined to comment publicly, not answering repeated phone calls and e-mail messages. Provance, a member of the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion's A Company, signed a nondisclosure agreement at his base in Germany on Friday. But he said he wanted to discuss Abu Ghraib because he believes that the intelligence community is covering up the abuses. He also spoke to ABC News on Sunday for a program that was to air last night.
Provance was interviewed by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay -- who is looking into the military intelligence community's role in the abuse -- and testified at an Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a pretrial hearing, for one of the MPs this month. But Provance said Fay was interested only in what military police had done, asking no questions about military intelligence.
Gary R. Myers, a civilian lawyer representing one of seven MPs charged in the alleged abuse, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II, said his client does not claim he was ordered to abuse detainees, just that military intelligence outlined what should be done and then left it up to the MPs.
"My guy is simply saying that these activities were encouraged" by military intelligence, Myers said yesterday. "The story is not necessarily that there was a direct order. Everybody is far too subtle and smart for that. . . . Realistically, there is a description of an activity, a suggestion that it may be helpful and encouragement that this is exactly what we needed."
Myers says he fears that officials are covering up the involvement of senior military officers, and that military officials have dissected the investigation into several separate inquiries run by people who have potential conflicts of interest. Earlier this month Myers asked Lt. Gen. Thomas F. Metz, commander of the Army's III Corps in Iraq, to order a special "court of inquiry" to offer an outside, unbiased look at the scandal, as was done when a U.S. Navy submarine collided with a Japanese fishing boat near Hawaii in 2001.
In a short letter dated May 5, Metz declined. Provance said when he arrived at Abu Ghraib last September, the place was bordering on chaos. Soldiers did not wear their uniforms, instead just donning brown shirts. They were all on a first-name basis. People came and went.
Within days -- about the time Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller paid a visit to the facility and told Karpinski, the commanding officer, that he wanted to "Gitmo-ize" the place -- money began pouring in, and many more interrogators streamed to the site. More prisoners were also funneled to the facility. Provance said officials from "Gitmo" -- the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -- arrived to increase the pressure on detainees and streamline interrogation efforts.
"The operation was snowballing," Provance said. "There were more and more interrogations. The chain of command was putting a lot of resources into the facility."
Even Karpinski, who commanded the facility as the head of the 800th MP Brigade, had to knock on a plywood door to gain access to the interrogation wing. She said that she had no idea what was going on there, and that the MPs who were handpicked to "enhance the interrogation effort" were essentially beyond her reach and unable to discuss their mission.
It was about that same time that Karpinski felt that high-ranking generals were trying to separate military intelligence away from Abu Ghraib and the military police operation, so it would be even more secluded and secret. Karpinski said in a recent interview that she visited three sites in and around Baghdad with military intelligence officials who were scouting a new compound.
"They continued to move me farther and farther away from it," Karpinski said. "They weren't extremely happy with Abu Ghraib. They wanted their own compound."
© 2004 The Washington Post Company
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004May19.html |
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| Shakka |
| Well at least that guy can't feel any embarassment/humiliation. I think that picture is less damaging than the one with the prisoner on a leash. |
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| FuzzyGreen |
| What is wrong with those pictures? they are celebrating the death of a terrorist. Nothing wrong with killing the enemy (and celebrating victory) in war time. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by FuzzyGreen
What is wrong with those pictures? they are celebrating the death of a terrorist. Nothing wrong with killing the enemy (and celebrating victory) in war time. |
Then that means there was nothing wrong with these people celebrating the death of US 'terrorists' right?
I remember you came here crying like a baby when they hung those Americans' charred bodies over the a bridge |
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| Q5echo |
| I'm a patriot Fuzzy, but Cyrus has a great point. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by FuzzyGreen
What is wrong with those pictures? they are celebrating the death of a terrorist. Nothing wrong with killing the enemy (and celebrating victory) in war time. |
oh ya all arabs are terrorists how can we forget!!!:rolleyes:
But seriously fuzzyqueer stfu :o |
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
oh ya all arabs are terrorists how can we forget!!!:rolleyes:
But seriously fuzzyqueer stfu :o |
Second that and Cyrus + Q5Echo
One thing I will say tho, it seems to be all from one group of people which is kinda positive. |
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| smokeape |
Enough's enough. I don't believe we need to release any more photos period. That only caused the terrorists to behead a man on video and post it on the Internet. Do we really want another gruesome beheading? These terrorists are really f*cked up in their beliefs. If we release any more photos ourselves, it should be of executions.
:whip:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| BadBadNeil |
Def bad stuff if he was in fact killed during interrogations.
Good thing is as someone else mentioned, it seems to only be around 5 or so people in all the photos.
As Cyrus mentioned we don't like it when they kill one of our people and parade them on tv but the big difference is those were the civilians of the country. That would be equal to them torturing the prisoner and then here in the states we burn them alive and hang them off the golden gate bridge. |
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
Def bad stuff if he was in fact killed during interrogations.
Good thing is as someone else mentioned, it seems to only be around 5 or so people in all the photos.
As Cyrus mentioned we don't like it when they kill one of our people and parade them on tv but the big difference is those were the civilians of the country. That would be equal to them torturing the prisoner and then here in the states we burn them alive and hang them off the golden gate bridge. |
Yeah but the flip of that is what about a cop killing someone in an interrogation (if he was I dunno) then him and his mates standing over taking pics smiling. |
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