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Question for all the Bush apologists out there (pg. 2)
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| tupsox |
| quote: | | Why do you believe that the Bush administration is held in such contempt and disdain by over half of American society and practically the world over or if you believe they aren't then why is this so as well considering what we have seen. No U.S. administration has been so reviled, despised and looked upon as pathetic as the current one. |
This has nothing to do with whether this Adminsitration is doing the right thing. A fecitious argument can be made that if the world is furious at us, we must be doing something right. Heck, the UN has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than all other nations COMBINED, so we know where their priorities are.
| quote: | | this time Florida will be counted properly as well despite the efforts of certain parties |
Some evidence, please? Every independent recount had Bush winning in Florida. Even if the recount methods Gore had sued for were allowed, Bush would have won the election. All the major networks called the state for Gore BEFORE THE POLLS CLOSED, turning away as many as 20,000 voters in the conservative panhandle. 1100 convicted felons were illegally prevented from voting...however many thousands more were illegally allowed to vote in 20 counties accross Florida that simply ignored the ex-con purge lists. Granted that convicts vote Democrat by a margin of 69-31, the only way this issue would have helped Gore is if: the 1100 were legally allowed to vote AND the thousands in the 20 counties were also allowed to vote (illegally). You can't make a case to eat your cake and have it too, whatever that means.
| quote: | | Is American domestic conditions even important anymore |
Do these conditions matter if we spend our days fearing for our lives because we're under attack? Furthermore, I'd point to the tax cuts leading to the recovering economy as evidence that things aren't as bad as they might seem.
| quote: | | When you look at their actions they have gone against many Republican principles, uncontrolled deficits and spending the likes of which we have never seen, government involvement in facets of American life all in the pursuit of terrorists and which defy the logics of what it means to be an American. |
Your language is overboard but I agree with your main points here. Compassionate Conservatism is a bunch of bull. The federal gov't shouldn't be invovled in this multi-trillion dollar education program. some parts of the USA PATRIOT act were necessary, but it was approved in a hurry with provisions that shouldnt have been there. However, these provisions are no different than the powers granted to law enforcement to fight the drug war, so its not like the USA PATRIOT act is totally unique from a civil liberties standpoint.
Basically, it seems evident to me that your intense personal hatred of George Bush has clouded your ability to think objectively on the issues you raised. Some call this BDS - Bush Derangement Syndrome. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by NYCTrancefan
Melodramatic, Not genuine, man the responses are getting very weak. Its all facts and if they aren't then please dispute them, melodrama and questioning genuineness are not suffice to say political discussion strengths. |
Uhm, I was responding to your opinion, not to any purported "Facts" that you spoke of. I'll isolate a smaller portion of the quote this time, with some emphasis(added by me).
| quote: | I can never trust the words that come out of the mouth of this administration again, we have no credibility or position of strength when we term other nations human rights abusers, possessing nuclear weapons ala North Korea and Iran.
How can you guys not see that America could never start another conflict in this world because its major premise for engaging in Iraq was proven to be absolutely lacking any merit. I just cannot accept invading another nations on the premise of freeing others, that is not our role in the world, who are we to be so arrogant. |
Sounding like a bit of a melodramatic defeatist. I haven't checked my calender, but I don't think the end of the world is coming for at least another 2-3 months.
And I'm questioning the genuineness of your statements simply because they are so over the edge and melodramatic. I should've put bold emphasis on the whole thing, but I was trying to be specific for you. But I digress...
Ya'll have a great weekend, I'm off to the land of North Carolina for a weekend of golf and R&R. Cheers!:) |
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| NYCTrancefan |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
Basically, it seems evident to me that your intense personal hatred of George Bush has clouded your ability to think objectively on the issues you raised. Some call this BDS - Bush Derangement Syndrome. |
This wouldn't be by any chance better than the BOS (Bush Obsession Syndrome), darn.:stongue: If you were on this forum much earlier you would have known that I was a Bush supporter at one point in time, what was I thinking then. When your government invades a nation and can't show one inch of evidence to verify their claims for the conflict and you believed them wholeheartedly it tends to make you wonder what really happened.
What are the objective P.O.V's on the issues I raised as you would deem them to be. That is my point for asking what are the listed actions that Bush has undertaken as president that has made us a better nation in his tenure. I have been waiting for this all day. I believe I have one the Tax Cuts, anything else. I am willing to discuss issues but I keep getting responses like he shares my values, nothing concrete however. |
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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
This has nothing to do with whether this Adminsitration is doing the right thing. A fecitious argument can be made that if the world is furious at us, we must be doing something right. Heck, the UN has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than all other nations COMBINED, so we know where their priorities are.
Some evidence, please? Every independent recount had Bush winning in Florida. Even if the recount methods Gore had sued for were allowed, Bush would have won the election. All the major networks called the state for Gore BEFORE THE POLLS CLOSED, turning away as many as 20,000 voters in the conservative panhandle. 1100 convicted felons were illegally prevented from voting...however many thousands more were illegally allowed to vote in 20 counties accross Florida that simply ignored the ex-con purge lists. Granted that convicts vote Democrat by a margin of 69-31, the only way this issue would have helped Gore is if: the 1100 were legally allowed to vote AND the thousands in the 20 counties were also allowed to vote (illegally). You can't make a case to eat your cake and have it too, whatever that means.
Do these conditions matter if we spend our days fearing for our lives because we're under attack? Furthermore, I'd point to the tax cuts leading to the recovering economy as evidence that things aren't as bad as they might seem.
Your language is overboard but I agree with your main points here. Compassionate Conservatism is a bunch of bull. The federal gov't shouldn't be invovled in this multi-trillion dollar education program. some parts of the USA PATRIOT act were necessary, but it was approved in a hurry with provisions that shouldnt have been there. However, these provisions are no different than the powers granted to law enforcement to fight the drug war, so its not like the USA PATRIOT act is totally unique from a civil liberties standpoint.
Basically, it seems evident to me that your intense personal hatred of George Bush has clouded your ability to think objectively on the issues you raised. Some call this BDS - Bush Derangement Syndrome. |
DUUUUUUUUDEE!!!!! I LIVE IN FLORIDAAAAA!! WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET ALL THIS INFORMATION FROM!!! pleeeeeeeeeeeasee!! that info is so screwed is not even FUNNYYY!!!
And no, not all networks called Gore before closing, Fox was the only one that didnt, and they call that when recints are allready closed, and the counting is about to get done.. and the first to call it for Bush, where as the others followed suit.. and oh please, I do not want to get into discussion with that, because what you said about the voting in Florida is just out of it.. and everyone knows it. |
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| NYCTrancefan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Uhm, I was responding to your opinion, not to any purported "Facts" that you spoke of. I'll isolate a smaller portion of the quote this time, with some emphasis(added by me).
Sounding like a bit of a melodramatic defeatist. I haven't checked my calender, but I don't think the end of the world is coming for at least another 2-3 months.
And I'm questioning the genuineness of your statements simply because they are so over the edge and melodramatic. I should've put bold emphasis on the whole thing, but I was trying to be specific for you. But I digress...
Ya'll have a great weekend, I'm off to the land of North Carolina for a weekend of golf and R&R. Cheers!:) |
So you're telling me that Iraq will not impact the abilities of the United States to bargain from a position of strength in defining its foreign policies. Answer this, why is no counrty willing to send troops to Iraq, why when the United States attempted to pass a resolution threatening sanctions on the Sudan they had to back down and remove the term "sanctions" from their own initiated resolution. How confident do you feel that the current administration will be able to bring about a solution to the North Korean situation.
Trust me its not melodrama it is a strong understanding of the international arena and the damage that has been done to U.S. credibility. I believe in this nation and what it has stood for over its history. Sorry to tell you but the current path under the Bush administration is not beneficial for Americans in the wider world. If all that matters however is America and the rest of the world will have to deal with our actions as is then we have confirmed the beliefs held of Americans, thx to one administration primarily. |
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| tupsox |
| quote: | | DUUUUUUUUDEE!!!!! I LIVE IN FLORIDAAAAA!! WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET ALL THIS INFORMATION FROM!!! pleeeeeeeeeeeasee!! that info is so screwed is not even FUNNYYY!!! |
Who's full of it? Want to cite some facts? Am I wrong about the purge lists for ex-cons? If you're actually curious about the timeline:
NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed. About an hour before the polls closed in panhandle Florida, the networks called the U.S. Senate race in favor of the Democratic candidate. The networks seriously compounded the problem because from 6-7 Central Time, they repeatedly announced that polls had closed in Florida--even though polls were open in the panhandle.
At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox.
Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.
In fact, Fox did not retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.
At 3:59 a.m., CBS took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service.
Care to back up your claims? |
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| tupsox |
| quote: | | This wouldn't be by any chance better than the BOS (Bush Obsession Syndrome), darn. If you were on this forum much earlier you would have known that blah blah blah blah blah blah |
Way to address the points I made in my previous posts, re: the moral standing of the world, the economy...
I'll also cite from a speech Bush gave today:
| quote: | The world changed on a terrible September morning. And since that day, we've changed the world.
Before September the 11th, Afghanistan served as the home base for Al Qaida, which trained and deployed thousands of killers to set up terror cells in dozens of countries, including our own. Today, Afghanistan is a rising democracy, an ally in the war on terror, a place where many young girls go to school for the first time. And as a result of our actions, America and the world are safer.
Before September the 11th, Pakistan was a safe transit point for terrorists. Today, Pakistani forces are aggressively helping to round up the terrorists and America and the world are safer.
Before September the 11th, in Saudi Arabia, terrorists were raising money and recruiting and operating with little opposition. Today, the Saudi government has taken the fight to Al Qaida and America and the world are safer.
Before September the 11th, Libya was spending millions to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Today, because America and our allies have sent a strong and clear message, the leader of Libya has abandoned his pursuit of weapons of mass destruction and America and the world are safer.
Before September the 11th, the ruler of Iraq was a sworn enemy of America.
BUSH: He was defying the world. He was firing weapons at American pilots and forcing the world's sanctions. He had pursued and used weapons of mass destruction against his own people. He had harbored terrorists. He invaded his neighbors. He subsidized the families of suicide bombers. He had murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens. He was a source of great instability in the world's most vulnerable region.
I took those threats seriously. After September the 11th, we had to look at the threats in a new light. One of the lessons of September the 11th is we must deal with threats before they fully materialize.
The September the 11th commission concluded that our institutions of government had failed to imagine the horror of that day. After September the 11th, we cannot fail to imagine that a brutal tyrant, who hated America, who had ties to terror, had weapons of mass destruction and might use those weapons or share his deadly capability with terrorists was not a threat.
We looked at the intelligence. We saw a threat. Members of the United States Congress from both political parties, including my opponent, looked at the intelligence and they saw a threat.
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What is wrong in this speech? Furthermore, how much of this would have been accomplished with Al Gore as president? And how much would be accomplished with John "U.N. " Kerry? |
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| NYCTrancefan |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
Way to address the points I made in my previous points, re: the moral standing of the world, the economy...
I'll also cite from a speech Bush gave today:
What is wrong in this speech? Furthermore, how much of this would have been accomplished with Al Gore as president? And how much would be accomplished with John "U.N. " Kerry? |
Good griefs I cannot believe that represents your rebuttal. Truly sad indeed that you believe that represents the pinnacle of George Bush's accomplishment. North Korea is a sworn enemy, Iran is a sworn enemy what do we do now tough guy. Ironically the same U.N. is the one that America wants so badly back in Iraq to lend legitimacy to our actions, believing that it will calm the rampant violence in Iraq on a daily basis. The Bush administration preperation for Iraq's aftermath is a failure, their understanding of the Middle East tolerance for American policy in that region where we are despised was seriously misguided.
Bush also stated something else today about Kerry "its good to have well meaning intentions, but that doesn't mean it is always the right thing" ding, enter Iraq well meaning but seriously misunderstood in its execution and aftermath. Bush should follow his own speechwriter's words:haha: |
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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
Who's full of it? Want to cite some facts? Am I wrong about the purge lists for ex-cons? If you're actually curious about the timeline:
NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed. About an hour before the polls closed in panhandle Florida, the networks called the U.S. Senate race in favor of the Democratic candidate. The networks seriously compounded the problem because from 6-7 Central Time, they repeatedly announced that polls had closed in Florida--even though polls were open in the panhandle.
At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox.
Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.
In fact, Fox did not retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.
At 3:59 a.m., CBS took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service.
Care to back up your claims? |
I read steadily about this on the major researches and reports done by The Miami Herald and never read such claims.. care to show me the links to where you found this information please?.
I hope you have in mind all the black voters that got turned around, as well as the thousands of votes thrown away in the West Palm Beach area, a MAJORLY democrat county... as well as the many other black voters that were rejected for criminal claims, claims that were clear by the court long before the counting. |
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| JM |
| quote: |
i identify with Bush's values. simple as that. |
>JM< |
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| tathi |
| NYCTrancefan, i feel for you. I'm also disgusted at the abhorrent decisions made by my government, none of them dissimilar to Bush's foreign policy (i wonder why? :/ ) |
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| St_Andrew |
Good posts NYCTrancefan :)
I was actually thinking about writing pretty much exactly the same thing myself, there is a reason that there currenty is so much hate/misstrust against USA.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
As for the world, I do not believe this is the direct fault of Bush. The fire was already blazing since Regan, he just added a little fuel by mistake. Regardless, the world has adapted to tolerate Bush. They can stand four more years of him, even if they don't like him much. |
How do you know? here i can speak 100% from my own experience. I live in a part of "the world" which is not america, where people mostly used to be very pro american perhaps not in the sense that we support you poltical policies but it has never been a problem that you are far more right than we are. People liked america anyway, but the last years (during the bush era) i have seen a big hate/misstrust comming up. Especially since the iraqwar (mosly due to actually) people have no trust at all in america, and just see it as something that WANT war no matter what, and also just want money (oil). Bush is also considered by most people here like a war criminal/idiot. This admin IS doing to your reputation, and there must be a reason for it!
One more funny thing, how come that none of the australians here have defended their countries iraq policies, and very few of the UK ones either... |
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