|
Funny Bush Pic (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| tathi |
| quote: | fbi
yep that the whole point to explain how you hear all those news on tv.
cause the terrorists are hiding behind civilians , and israeli soldiers have to shoot unless they wanna get killed just as other person that wanna get killed he will shoot the enemy. |
^^ i <3 stereotypes
you're not worth it :p :/ |
|
|
| Matt |
| Canadian peaches n' cream corn > American corn. |
|
|
| tupsox |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
the irony about that sig is the Israeli army would target both the baby in the pram and the activist
alas this also can be said about the Palestinian activist |
You're clueless.
A friend of mine, a medic, was on patrol with his unit. He see's a 10 year old boy lighting a molotov cocktail to throw at them. What can/should/does he do? If he does nothing, he risks men in his unit being killed.
He shot the boy in the arm and immediatly gives him first aid treatment (as a medic), and calls for a medivac to get the boy to a hospital.
These are the choices Israeli soldiers face, and you've clearly never met one or you'd understand the horrific moral dilemmas they're forced to face. The mainstream world media never reports the details of these stories, so the moral superiority of the Israeli soldiers is never broadcast. If the Israelis truly desired to kill innocent Palestinians, there would be no Palestinians. The alleged ethnic cleansing is going very poorly, seeing as the Palestinian population is growing exponentially. |
|
|
| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by FederalBI
yep that the whole point to explain how you hear all those news on tv.
cause the terrorists are hiding behind civilians , and israeli soldiers have to shoot unless they wanna get killed just as other person that wanna get killed he will shoot the enemy. |
Yeah.. that happens EVERY SINGLE TIME:rolleyes:
they also hide behind innocent civilians when helicopter gunships blow up crowded streets:rolleyes: |
|
|
| Palestinian |
And not the boy, nor the soldier would have been shot if the soldier didn't take over the boy's land.
Israeli soldiers simply don't target. The norm is that they randomly shoot all over the place. This is evident from the bullet riddled walls of almost every Palestinian home in every village that is invaded. "Warning shots" have killed many Palestinians and can't simply be ignored. What about all the times a Palestinian simply looks out his or her window and is shot in the head? What to say about that? We wouldn't even have to argue about who targets who if the Israeli military wasn't in the Occupied Palestinian Territories for 40 in years. |
|
|
| tupsox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
And not the boy, nor the soldier would have been shot if the soldier didn't take over the boy's land.
Israeli soldiers simply don't target. The norm is that they randomly shoot all over the place. This is evident from the bullet riddled walls of almost every Palestinian home in every village that is invaded. "Warning shots" have killed many Palestinians and can't simply be ignored. What about all the times a Palestinian simply looks out his or her window and is shot in the head? What to say about that? We wouldn't even have to argue about who targets who if the Israeli military wasn't in the Occupied Palestinian Territories for 40 in years. |
It sucks when innocent Palestinians are killed. But they're not the intended target.
Say, do you have a source for the quote in your signature? Aside from quoting the wrong guy (this misquote is attributed to Moshe Dayan, NOT David Ben Gurion), it is taken quite out of context.
The quote is taken from an address Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969. A transcription of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.
In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. He goes on to say:
“We came to a region that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In many places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around...”
Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them.
In the misquote, the key phrase “we purchased the land from Arabs” is omitted and thus Dayan's meaning is misrepresented. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their one-time presence in the land of Israel, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.
This reminds me of all those nasty "quotes" by Sharon ("We control America", "Palestinians are roaches") that were actually just made up and posted on terrorist (Hiz'bollah) and other assorted nutjob websites. |
|
|
| tupsox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
And not the boy, nor the soldier would have been shot if the soldier didn't take over the boy's land.
Israeli soldiers simply don't target. The norm is that they randomly shoot all over the place. This is evident from the bullet riddled walls of almost every Palestinian home in every village that is invaded. "Warning shots" have killed many Palestinians and can't simply be ignored. What about all the times a Palestinian simply looks out his or her window and is shot in the head? What to say about that? We wouldn't even have to argue about who targets who if the Israeli military wasn't in the Occupied Palestinian Territories for 40 in years. |
Remember also that I provided that anecdote in order to demonstrate to our friend in Australia that his view of the conflict his skewed. He said that the Israeli's would target the child. I attempt to show otherwise. You're trying to change the subject. But I'll take the bait.
Why has Israel been in the territories for almost 40 years? Could it have anything to do with the unprovoked aggression against Israel in the leadup to the 1967 war? (Agression: Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran and the Port of Eilat, Egpyt and Syria moving troops onto the Israeli border, and broadcasting over radio that the end of the Zionist entity is imminent). Israel has been all to eager to withdraw from the captured territories on the important condition that it would not threaten Israel's security. Israel gave back all of the Sinai to Egypt in the 1979 peace deal, and even tried to get out of Gaza then but Egypt wouldn't take it. The Oslo Accords and Camp David 2000 and Taba 2001 also show Israel's willingness to pull out of the territories on the condition that it wouldn't harm Israeli security (i.e. if terrorist and militant forces were kept in check). My point is that Israel's presence in the territories has to be taken in context. People of good will can disagree about whether Israel should actively patrol, whether they should immediately unilaterally withdraw, etc. Indeed, with 6 million Israelis, theres probably 6,000,001 ideas for how to fix the problem. But please, a little recognition of history and context. |
|
|
| Palestinian |
I did find out Dayan said that quote but I didn't bother to change it in my sig because I didn't think it mattered which Zionist leader said it, and I still think it doesn't, but if it'll make you happier, I would be happy to change it.
I don't see how the quote is taken out of context. The Jewish immigrants bought land from rich Arab landowners who resided in other countries. The Ottoman Land laws allowed landowners to live elsewhere while the peasants and the indigenous of the land would build their homes on that land and tend that land for the owner who would pay them in return, feudal-system style. Here is the problem that started the whole conflict: Once the Jewish immigrants bought the land from the landowner who didn't even live there, they would expel the peasants and farmers that tended the previous owner's land so they can hire Jewish immigrant farmers instead. The Palestinian farmers didn't even know that the land they tended and considered their HOME was just sold to what they perceived as "European colonists". The expulsions were usually on short notice. This was all before the 1948 war when 400 villages were taken over.
Dayan's quote destroys the Zionist myth that Palestine was an 'empty wasteland'.
Moreover, although Dayan was "vehemently opposed" to deportation, the Israeli government has deported many Palestinians since they occupied the territories 40 in years ago. Israel took the boy's suggestion and not Dayan's.
It seems you didn't understand my previous post. In many instances, Israeli soldiers shoot randomly without targetting anyone in particular. They don't have an intended target.
Israel has not been eager to give back the territories. This shows in their policy of settlement building. The Camp David proposal was rejected by us for many reasons. The Taba negotiations were productive and Israel is invited to continue negotiating this now but refuses. |
|
|
| tupsox |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
I did find out Dayan said that quote but I didn't bother to change it in my sig because I didn't think it mattered which Zionist leader said it, and I still think it doesn't, but if it'll make you happier, I would be happy to change it.
I don't see how the quote is taken out of context. The Jewish immigrants bought land from rich Arab landowners who resided in other countries. The Ottoman Land laws allowed landowners to live elsewhere while the peasants and the indigenous of the land would build their homes on that land and tend that land for the owner who would pay them in return, feudal-system style. Here is the problem that started the whole conflict: Once the Jewish immigrants bought the land from the landowner who didn't even live there, they would expel the peasants and farmers that tended the previous owner's land so they can hire Jewish immigrant farmers instead. The Palestinian farmers didn't even know that the land they tended and considered their HOME was just sold to what they perceived as "European colonists". The expulsions were usually on short notice. This was all before the 1948 war when 400 villages were taken over.
Dayan's quote destroys the Zionist myth that Palestine was an 'empty wasteland'.
Moreover, although Dayan was "vehemently opposed" to deportation, the Israeli government has deported many Palestinians since they occupied the territories 40 in years ago. Israel took the boy's suggestion and not Dayan's.
It seems you didn't understand my previous post. In many instances, Israeli soldiers shoot randomly without targetting anyone in particular. They don't have an intended target.
Israel has not been eager to give back the territories. This shows in their policy of settlement building. The Camp David proposal was rejected by us for many reasons. The Taba negotiations were productive and Israel is invited to continue negotiating this now but refuses. |
Good post. It would seem our disagreement might be predicated on fundamental disagreements about such things as prive property ownership and entitlement. Think on a micro level - if a landlord sells his building, and the new owner refuses to renew the leases of the tenants because he/she wants to redevelop the site, is this illegal? It puts some people out of luck, but if ownership of property is to be upheld in a court of law I don't see any potential recourse.
Granted that the European Jewish immigrants were fleeing for their lives, it would seem they acted in a very law-abiding manner, by buying the land they intended to live on. You moved to Canada, established residence legally by either buying or renting, why is not ok for Jews to do the same except, in their case, to mandatory pre-1948 Palestine?
I never stated or contended that mandatory Palestine was an empty land, so saying that Dayan's quote destroys the "Zionist Myth" is a straw man argument.
Regarding settlement construction, why should these be an obstacle to peace? Lets say that the eventual solution is 2-states, side by side, Israel and Palestine, leaving peacefully and respecting eachothers existence and borders. Israel respects the 15-20% of its citizenry that is Arab Muslim (Bedouin and Palestinian). Why should a future Palestine be exempt from treating the Jewish minority of its populations as citizens as well? Why is it acceptable for Palstinians to require an ethnically pure state?
For accuracy, you might as well change your sig. Dayan's exact quote was: “We came to a region that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In many places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushu’a in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village.” Obviously a few words here or there are open to differences in translation, but the bit about buying land is fairly important information. |
|
|
| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
|
still looking for WMDs? :rolleyes: Sometimes an ear of corn is just an ear of corn George. :stongue: |
|
|
| tathi |
| quote: | Originally posted by tupsox
You're clueless. |
i'd love to pull apart your argument Fraisure stylz, but i'm retired and this thread isn't as interesting as Sydney weather.
your stereotypes and confirmation bias is pretty funny though :haha: |
|
|
| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
i'd love to pull apart your argument Fraisure stylz, but i'm retired and this thread isn't as interesting as Sydney weather.
your stereotypes and confirmation bias is pretty funny though :haha: |
dont worry tupsox, this is how tathi innitiates the noobs who can actually present a reasonable arguement. it means you're one of us now. i remember yoepus getting the same treatment a (long) while ago - now it appears they're friends :eek:
;) |
|
|
|
|
