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Can you forgive?
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| trancaholic |
Brief question that I can't come up with any satisfying answers to myself (or find among friends and dictionaries): What does it mean to forgive someone (say, forgiving your best friend for screwing your wife)?
Hope someone wants to play ball :toothless |
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| girllovingtvibe |
I would say you can forgive someone - but I would never trust that person again....Forgiveness:
The ingredients of Forgiveness:
"1) Your feelings are legitimate. It is silly to pretend that someone did not hurt you when in fact, they did. Even if it was unintentional, pretending it didn’t hurt is being dishonest with yourself. You know that it really did hurt, and you may spend a lot of time trying to convince yourself of something that you know not to be true. Perhaps you were too sensitive, but this stage is not the place to begin telling yourself to get over it.
2) There is no such thing as revenge. It simply does not exist. You can hurt someone, even worse than they hurt you, yet it will never, “even the score.” There is a saying, “Acid does more damage to the vessel it is stored in than to what it is poured on.”
3) Forgiveness is not what you feel. It is what you do with those feelings. If someone runs over a loved one with a car, it is going to take awhile for me to get over the anger. Yet, I can forgive the person more quickly. How? Because the action part of forgiveness is the “laying down of weapons.” What are weapons? Getting even, yelling, name calling, being passive aggressive, and the like. Anything I do to purposely hurt someone is a weapon. I may have to lay down my weapons 10 times in 10 minutes. It is something I am in control of, as opposed to controlling the way I feel. You cannot always control your feelings, but you can control your actions.
4) Forgiveness is not the same as trust. Most people believe that to forgive someone means I have no ill feelings towards them. However, it takes time for feelings to change. Trust always takes time. Time to see if the person is in fact trustworthy. To trust someone before they have proven to be trustworthy is foolish. Those who try to trust too quickly confuse forgiveness with condoning. Condoning means to simply pretend something never occurred. This is the quality that makes Grandparents so loveable. They simply smile, and ignore it. While we should forgive someone, to continue to trust them if the behavior continues, will only reinforce and/or encourage the behavior to continue.
5) Forgiveness means to Grieve. It is acknowledging that we have been hurt. Whatever was done to you, you let it go. Let it die. There is no way to get even, it will only haunt you. Let yourself grieve whatever was done to you, that you might be free of that injury. Forgiving them will enable you to be free. By letting it go that simply means you choose to not get even, either through thought or deed. Once you are able to do this, you will cease to be haunted by what was done to you."
I think that wraps it up....really! |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by girllovingtvibe
Because the action part of forgiveness is the “laying down of weapons.” What are weapons? Getting even, yelling, name calling, being passive aggressive, and the like. Anything I do to purposely hurt someone is a weapon. I may have to lay down my weapons 10 times in 10 minutes. It is something I am in control of, as opposed to controlling the way I feel. You cannot always control your feelings, but you can control your actions.
Most people believe that to forgive someone means I have no ill feelings towards them. However, it takes time for feelings to change. Trust always takes time. Time to see if the person is in fact trustworthy. To trust someone before they have proven to be trustworthy is foolish. Those who try to trust too quickly confuse forgiveness with condoning. Condoning means to simply pretend something never occurred.
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So I take it that stating "You're forgiven" means to decline any rights to revenge. My own thought were in the direction of what you describe as condoning: An expressed intention to never bring up the subject again. However, both interpretations leaves me somewhat unsatisfied. Most people I am around have a very spiritual angle on forgivenes, and state that it is important to be able to forgive, lest hate should eat you up from inside. But when the existence of hatred within you (by both yours and mine definition) is independent of whether you forgive or not, then that spiritual angle must somehow be wrong. And if it is wrong by my definition (and yours), then I cannot understand why so many people subscribe to it. In turn that suggests to me that I'm the one at fault and the one who is ignoring something important. |
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| NeoPhono |
I think forgiving for me falls into one of three categories.
1 - People that I have forgiven because being in their circumstance I would have done the same. (Someone taking the last piece of pie or something else equally trivial)
2 - People that I have forgiven because I realize that they are truly sorry for their mistakes and anything I could do in retaliation would be pointless in contrast to their internal strife. :D (Someone running over my cat or hitting me in the face with a brick on accident)
3 - People that I "forgive" only in the sense that I know because of what they have done I will never associate myself with them again, and it's pointless to hold a fued with someone you'll never hope to encounter. (Someone cheating on me, or doing something maliciously) |
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| ierxium |
Okay I have time to waste before I go to sleep.
Here it goes:
Forgive:
(1) To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
(2) To renounce anger or resentment against.
(3) To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
You have to think of many factors and instances. I will not do that tonight.
Members of my family I can forgive because I am unable to hold anger towards one of my own. Even if a brother of mine decide to kill me one day, I would still forgive him, I mean, I would if it was possible in after death or before dying. The trust in the family should not be played with. So when minor mistakes/insults/aggravations/etc. are commited the best one can do is forgive. It would be senseless to be angry with a family member for the rest of your life. So just forgive and hope that you forget the offense or whatever has happened.
Forgiving people outside family is a different process. You owe nothing to people outside family(there are some exceptions of course). Considering how bad was what the other person has done to you, you can choose to forgive him/her or not. It depends on what was done. If the person did something really bad, I would distance myself from that person if I think he/she would continue doing what was done. But of course I would forgive him/her. I lose nothing by forgiving a person.
It is important to think for the other person. There are some sensitive people out there that need to know that they were forgiven for what they did. But then you have those crazy lunatics that don't care one bit about you or what you might have to say.
Now, if there's a grave case like some murdering a loved one, then you might end up forgiving someone but you also expect the punishment for that person. It is possible to have both I guess. I have never been in that situation. But I can say if someone killed a person close to me, I would not hesitate to kill the person who did it, even if God, or whatever mighty power you believe in, showed up and told me not to do it.
Anger sometimes keep you from forgiving. It's normal. Luckily the anger never lasts. Sometimes it turns into sadness and forgiveness, other times it doesn't.
Forgiving and forget are hard to put together. The trust is never back a 100%. But the sacred books tell one to forgive. Now, I wonder why God didn't forgive Lucifer? Ever thought of that? Or why didn't He forgive the people in those places He destroyed? Damn, I was trying to keep myself from questioning any religion. I hope all you believers out there find it in your hearts to forgive me for doing this.
In conclusion, I forgive because it's good for me and for the other people as well. But there are situations where it's impossible to forgive. Fortunately, I have never been in that situation.
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| girllovingtvibe |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
So I take it that stating "You're forgiven" means to decline any rights to revenge. My own thought were in the direction of what you describe as condoning: An expressed intention to never bring up the subject again. However, both interpretations leaves me somewhat unsatisfied. Most people I am around have a very spiritual angle on forgivenes, and state that it is important to be able to forgive, lest hate should eat you up from inside. But when the existence of hatred within you (by both yours and mine definition) is independent of whether you forgive or not, then that spiritual angle must somehow be wrong. And if it is wrong by my definition (and yours), then I cannot understand why so many people subscribe to it. In turn that suggests to me that I'm the one at fault and the one who is ignoring something important. |
If hatred exists in you (regardless of forgiveness or not) then that is something that no matter what angle you take –you can’t possibly argue/understand the spiritual concept. Forgiveness I believe is just that – a spiritual concept. Spirituality; going above and beyond a “natural” or “instinctual” (according to scientists) response. Spirituality is trained. For me the reason why I subscribe to spirituality and forgiveness is part and parcel to my belief system. If YOU BELIEVE in a spiritual concept you unsubscribe yourself to reacting to anger (Spirituality = being the positive no war belief system). This – you eventually learn – makes life a hell of a lot easier to live with. I have never subscribed to revenge and believe completely in karma. One could say that this is due to my spirituality or my beliefs. Regardless - any person who has "done me wrong" has received their just karma and then some. Perhaps I am blessed, lucky or whatever - it just works that way in my life. If I reacted with anger - it would get me absolutely nowhere. When you feed hatred it gets uglier and eventually spins out of control. I do not ignore or suggest that I was the one – I don’t believe forgiveness means: I WAS WRONG – what it does do is give me a sense of closure. I do not forgive people for THEM – but for myself. |
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| speedracer_mec |
| Forgiveness= Never trust in that person again??? |
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| smokeape |
:mad:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| trancaholic |
Thanks for the answers. I wouldn't say that I am a whole lot more clear on this point, but at least it made for entertaining readings. LOL @ ierxium for the pun.
| quote: | Originally posted by speedracer_mec
Forgiveness= Never trust in that person again??? |
This is pretty close to the essence of my question. If I say that I forgive someone would it necessarily entail that I would need to trust the person in similar circumstances in the future? If that's the case then I guess I am not able to forgive - "fool me once..." |
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| speedracer_mec |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Thanks for the answers. I wouldn't say that I am a whole lot more clear on this point, but at least it made for entertaining readings. LOL @ ierxium for the pun.
This is pretty close to the essence of my question. If I say that I forgive someone would it necessarily entail that I would need to trust the person in similar circumstances in the future? If that's the case then I guess I am not able to forgive - "fool me once..." |
Im in a tough situation regarding that. Pm me if you want details. Quite honestly I believe its possible to regain the trust after forgiveness but its how the person works to portray themselves as worthy and deserving of having that trust once again. It will take a while to regain that trust. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by speedracer_mec
Im in a tough situation regarding that. Pm me if you want details. |
Nah. Even though I feel a perverse curiosity, I don't really think that I have earned any myself any reason to be confided in by you. Whatever it is, I hope you pull through quickly, though.
| quote: | Originally posted by speedracer_mec
Quite honestly I believe its possible to regain the trust after forgiveness but its how the person works to portray themselves as worthy and deserving of having that trust once again. It will take a while to regain that trust. |
You may be right. But even if it is possible to rebuild trust, I wouldn't think that to be the forgiving act (which I see as something happening in an instant) - more a result of an effort on behalf of the one being forgiven. |
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