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Bush: "My administration is not to blame for Iraq ... Why? Cuz you voted for me!!!" (pg. 2)
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| zig |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dervish
To be honest I wouldn't even say the war was that bad......... the management of the war however maybe called into question. But even the it's a big operation. |
Well the war is continueing whether governments deny it or not..and isnt that really the point about the war that it was badly managed from the start and continues to be according to troops on the ground..as regards manpower resources etc..yes the initial invasion was a success in that the coalition forces took control relitively quickly..
100,000 dead Iraqis would probably disagree with you that it wasnt that bad and i believe the interim government were told to stop counting the dead..so we will probably never know the true extent of all casulties
The management of the war is still the big question mark as regards Donald Rumsfeld..but troops on the ground will openly admit its a F**k up
My point is i guess the bad management of the war from the beginning was allways going to make this a bad war...not that i have much faith in good wars either |
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| zig |
| quote: | Originally posted by wolverine16
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
I think that Occrider's point wasn't meant to compare Bush to Hitler, it was to show that using the Bush administration's argument, you could essentially justify more extreme cases as well as being the fault of the citizens for voting their leaders in, rather than the leaders holding any accountablitiy.
That comic is the first time I've ever heard an accusation that the left deny the Holocaust, especialy considring there's so many Jewish Democrats. What kind of drugs were the cartoonists on who did that? |
As soon as i saw the cartoon i thought thats a rubbish arguement if ever i saw one..and just dismissed it as irrelivent..and ye i dont think Occ has any particular ideas that Bush is the new Hitler..forget about it |
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| Dervish |
I mean the thing is I know there have been big problems and there have been ups (I bring them up too). But like most big and new operations (in buisness too) you just have to do the best you can. Accept your going to make mistakes and when you make them try to learn from them.
But when you find you have systematic problems (indemic to the system i.e. depends on your view point, but e.g. the american/coalition/world system of governance or american/coalition military). The changes required could be painful and unexpected and upset the status quo. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by zig
As soon as i saw the cartoon i thought thats a rubbish arguement if ever i saw one..and just dismissed it as irrelivent..and ye i dont think Occ has any particular ideas that Bush is the new Hitler..forget about it |
It was the juxtaposition of Hitler's and Bush's administrations that set it off...
It's a ludicrious cartoon yes, but so is the arguement...
Unless of course he's being facetious in which case...I guess I got egg on ma face... :p |
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| St_Andrew |
| didnt they vote on him because of his good morals? :rolleyes: or perhaps a man with so good morals, must be right when he go to war? |
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| Dervish |
Yeah ace morals..... (pick you own example you know what I'm talking about).
But like you (making an assumtion here) are saying do you think it's because the american people think he is whiter than white (not in racalist, intended sp btw, terms) that they let him off with things. OR just because they are a member of the biggest and best-er-ish club in the world the U-S-A club and he's their leader. He must be the best-er-ish leader in the world cos we're the best-er-ish nation in the world with the best-er-ish people in the world (wow I'm the best they say.... my job at kmart means I R best since I'm in the US of A and R part of the club, actually better name tribe).
(not ment to be a genralisation, every country in the world does it, worst of all us scots and guys admit it sits at the back of your mind, someone not from your country attacks your country in anyway, "damn american/scottish this or that" you feel a tinge and get defencive)
It's tribalism can't avoid it. Have to vote for the president he's the president of the usa..... must be the best there is.....
EDIT: This term ring any bells:
| quote: | | To not vote for the president it's....it's.... just god damn UNAMERICAN!!!! |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by wolverine16
I think that Occrider's point wasn't meant to compare Bush to Hitler, it was to show that using the Bush administration's argument, you could essentially justify more extreme cases as well as being the fault of the citizens for voting their leaders in, rather than the leaders holding any accountablitiy. |
i would like to add Mayor Marion Barry to the list :toothless |
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| Dj Tomer |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
didnt they vote on him because of his good morals? :rolleyes: or perhaps a man with so good morals, must be right when he go to war? |
I'm pretty sure they went for the 'people vote for republicans during times of war' strategy. There was lots of emphasis on 'what would Kerry do if he got elected?'. Trying to make it seem that the only person who could handle the situation in the right way would be Bush. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by wolverine16
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
I think that Occrider's point wasn't meant to compare Bush to Hitler, it was to show that using the Bush administration's argument, you could essentially justify more extreme cases as well as being the fault of the citizens for voting their leaders in, rather than the leaders holding any accountablitiy.
That comic is the first time I've ever heard an accusation that the left deny the Holocaust, especialy considring there's so many Jewish Democrats. What kind of drugs were the cartoonists on who did that? |
Bingo ... my intention was not to commit a godwin (a pet peeve of mine), but to illustrate how the logic of the statement is ludicrous. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
Appropriate:
| quote: | Dietrich Bonhoeffer on Cheap Grace
Let the Christian rest content with his worldliness and with this renunciation of any higher standard than the world. He is living for the sake of the world rather than for the sake of grace. Let him be comforted and rest assured in his possession of this grace - for grace alone does everything. Instead of following Christ, let the Christian enjoy the consolations of his grace!
That is what we mean by cheap grace, the grace which amounts to the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sins departs.
Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession.
Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must the asked for, the door at which a man must knock.
Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us.
Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
http://koti.mbnet.fi/amoira/blessings/gracech1.htm |
Thanks to J. Marshall's Talking Points for the link. |
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| NYGblue |
| quote: | Originally posted by josh4
Yeah that's what I meant, revoted. The first time around was a little different because the cercimstances changed after he was already in office. But the second time around, we damn well knew what we were getting into. Ignorance is never an excuse anyways.
Besides, if this is such a horrible war that only the Bush Administration is to blame for and the American people are just being pulled along for the ride against their will, then that is even worse. Damn to hell a population of my country men that would allow such to be done to them. Where are the riots? Where are the marches on Washington? Where are the END WAR NOW signs? There aren't any. We're turning a blind ear to the war, even becoming bored of hearing about it. Shrugging our shoulders at the rest of the world and saying "sorry, nothing we can do, hes the boss" is an atrocity. |
This is an easy one. You are under the assumption the American people care. You want riots and protests and people really demanding an end to the war, reinstitute the draft so that they feel the pinch. Let me tell you, all these armchair conservatives that woop and hollar about the war would change their tune REAL fast once their ass would be on the line.
People need to understand that the American public isn't this savvy aware society. It is a society of fickle self-involved people. Their small world problems consume them to a point that they refuse to acknowledge everything else. You want them to get mad at Bush and his bull, tell them that his actions could really put their ass on the line. Threaten them with the idea of a draft. Thats my belief, I am all for the draft, I am all for Americans taking responsibility upon themselves to stand up for something. Those that want to go to Iraq and believe in what Bush is doing will put up and shut up. Those that won't will fight it. |
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| josh4 |
| ^^ While I don't disagree with you, I wonder if the rest of the world is angry because of what the US does or because theres nothing they can do about it. |
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