|
Mastering stuuuuuff... (pg. 2)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Rob |
| quote: | Originally posted by RiCo
now that you mention Armin, his CDs always sound too low and weak, compared to PVD and ATB, which sound fuller and richer. :)
|
The sad fact is, the more mainstream you are, the louder your tracks need to be to demolish the opposition. ATB's CD's are exceptionally loud. The single ATB - Alone was PAINFULLY loud. With that being said, to some people it may not be. CDs these days have peak averages almost as loud as their peaks. People will eventually get used to this hot- super-compressed sound, and when they go back to listen to CDs that are 5-10 years old, they'll think they sound like garbage because they're so quiet. In comparison, people from 5-10 years ago are probably going deaf from hearing these super compressed pieces of .
And yes I made that second track. It's a Remix of a well known PVD track from last year. Still sounds amature in my opinion tho. |
|
|
| Derivative |
that track you posted is good mate. the master is WAY better than the premaster. but the master loses certain presence in the mid ranges. the snare hits seem to be drowned out by that great big sub tail end on that kick. the good thing was - i listened to that and thought on the premaster 'that kick aint punching through enough.' then when the master came on it was like 'yea thats getting closer to the sweet spot' ;) . i think its kind if deceptive - you've sort of done what i did with my master - only more subtly. it sounds like you brought up a little more emphasis on the top end and bottom end. and the mid ranges seem to lose their presence, having to punch out with all that extra bass and treble around it. it just seems to get drowned out a bit. it seems to make our songs seem 'wider' and 'bigger' but as you say, neither of us still have that tonal balance of those pro tunes you posted.
this stuff is such a fine line its crazy - i can sort of see why they recommend you master with completely unfatigued ears - its all nuance and tone and texture. in minute detail.
also - you are right about mainstream tunes. they get louder and louder every year. and its a weird trick of the ears that when something comes on louder it tends to sound 'better' to the ear. at least at first. thats why some of the guys in the DJ forum end up compressing their entire sets which i thought of as a no no. the comparisons that were made in 1 thread exemplified this point. a side by side comparison of an armin song. compressed. and uncompressed. the compressed one was flatter and the texture was different (as in a compressor which colours the sound). it was also about 4 dB louder than the uncompressed version. most people said the compressed one sounded better.
i imported both into floops. raised the uncompressed track by 4 dB (yep - it clipped). so i did it the other way around. lowered the compressed track so it peaked at exactly the same level and upped the volume on my hifi. the uncompressed one i felt was still better. and whats 4 dB extra in a club? really? when you notice its that much less dynamic?
there are also full on psy tunes i have which audibly clip when you just put them into soundforge. i mean. man. how long is it gonna be before the only way we can spaz out on the dancefloor is when all tunes are mixed 3 times over 0 dB and the popular sound of dance is clipping noise?
| quote: | | You say you loose a lot of life if not using dynamics on your Bus? Hmmm...usually, the stuff has to sound good and the dynamics is just for perfecting it...it shouldn't drastically change or pump the sound...you know what I mean? But now that you mention FL, my stuff there always sounded low. |
its not so much that. i can level off all my channel meters and they will all be pushing 0 dB near enough - and its still not loud enough. i do my kicks and bass in a separate flp file. my hats in a separate flp file and my leads and rhythym section in another. in nearly all cases i have to compress each one as a whole to get the desired kind of level out of them. ive also heard some other people say that floops seems to output quite cold - one of them, nightwalker (who is a dnb artist signed to grid recordings) says he was to export the finished results into wavelab and boost it like crazy to get enough volume out of it. im not really sure why this is but it seems like theres a workaround. and ive heard some BIG and LOUD tunes come out of floops - find any one of technikal's songs. how the hell does he do that? its hard house though so i know from the sound that various parts of it have he living daylights compressed out of them. overcompression seems to compliment hard house. but in trance. i think the loss of dynamic really shows. trance is subtler - you need the range of levels in your tune. back to the drawing board i guess ;)
rico you should post a premaster/master so we can compare - lets see if you are doing it better than we are :D |
|
|
| RiCo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rob
The sad fact is, the more mainstream you are, the louder your tracks need to be to demolish the opposition. ATB's CD's are exceptionally loud. The single ATB - Alone was PAINFULLY loud. With that being said, to some people it may not be. CDs these days have peak averages almost as loud as their peaks. People will eventually get used to this hot- super-compressed sound, and when they go back to listen to CDs that are 5-10 years old, they'll think they sound like garbage because they're so quiet. In comparison, people from 5-10 years ago are probably going deaf from hearing these super compressed pieces of .
And yes I made that second track. It's a Remix of a well known PVD track from last year. Still sounds amature in my opinion tho. |
Yeah, you're right about current CDs...they're overprocessed. But some still sound allright compared to others. You know what CD is the best sounding to me? Butterfly from Mariah Carey. I always used the song My All as reference to tune my sound systems in all the cars I've owned. The bass is extremely tight and the highs are controlled, very sharp and silky. Everytime a bassnote hits in My All, I get goosebumps, haha...it might be from '97 but my ear still loves it. :) Oh, your song sounds pro to me...honestly. I wish I could produce like that. |
|
|
| Derivative |
seriously it aint that good ;) theres so much wrong with it. but the cool thing is its fixable. if a bass note brings out goosebumps then its GOOD. man thats the ultimate thing i want to achieve in music - send a shiver down people's spine and bring em out in goosebumps - actually make them physically react to it. yeaaaaaaaa!
you should post some of your stuff man - we can make this into an all purpose mastering discussion thread for feedback and such. ive heard some of your sound designing and its pretty hot - that ultra analog pad was pretty sweet. i dont think i spent enough time with the demo. you all software? |
|
|
| Rob |
| quote: | Originally posted by Derivative
it just seems to get drowned out a bit. it seems to make our songs seem 'wider' and 'bigger' but as you say, neither of us still have that tonal balance of those pro tunes you posted. |
And there in lies our problem. Either our tracks are too wide, or too narrow, yet they never fall into that "sweet spot" where the tonal balance is just right. I don't know if it's a mastering issue, but I sure hope it is. I also hope it's everyone being over critical. I pray that if a layman listener listened to our tracks they couldn't pick the difference, seeing as it would just subconsiously be "right" to them.
knows tho. I can't seem come to grips with recognising when something is wrong. When is something wrong? How do you spot/realise when something isn't right? When is something too loud, too hissy, too bass heavy, too muddy. And what's the means or measure to judge a track as sounding just "right". If any of us knew these things, wouldn't we be musical prodigies by now? (I'd like to think so)
| quote: | Originally posted by RiCo
Yeah, you're right about current CDs...they're overprocessed. But some still sound allright compared to others. You know what CD is the best sounding to me? Butterfly from Mariah Carey. I always used the song My All as reference to tune my sound systems in all the cars I've owned. The bass is extremely tight and the highs are controlled, very sharp and silky. Everytime a bassnote hits in My All, I get goosebumps, haha...it might be from '97 but my ear still loves it. :) Oh, your song sounds pro to me...honestly. I wish I could produce like that. |
My favourite sounding CD would have to be Avril Lavigne - Let Go, but I don't use it as a reference, seeing as it's a totally different genre to the music that I try and make. Your reference idealy should be in the same genre you're track is in. To me, achieving that "pro sound"(even tho I havn't) seems to be like swinging at a baseball while being blindfolded. It's really a hit or miss affair. You either get damn close, or miss completly. To me, everything seems a fluke. Take enough swings and you'll eventually hit a home run(I'd like to think so anyway).
And as for posting master/premasters, they're nothing without a reference track! So post a reference of what you've mastered it against;) I'd be more then happy to give my opinion. |
|
|
| RiCo |
OK, for example, take this gay sounding fast track I just made...sounds decently clean before dynamics. I didn't EQ anything...just arranged it and adjusted levels a bit. I used Sony MDR-7506 headphones.
oobe.myftp.org/oobe_untitled_preprocessed.mp3
Now the same one after dynamics. This was done with Waves LinMB using Adaptive Multi Electro Mastering preset at -30...which got rid of a lot of bass. Then it was compensated 10 with Waves L2; 1.0 release, -0.2 ceiling and -10.0 threshold which raised the overall level considerably and added the punch and drive of the song.. See how it comes alive? It's so overwhelming how the ear gets tired no matter what monitoring system you use and it starts playing tricks on you. Sometimes things sound so good and the next day I'm like: "Whoa, what in Earth was I thinking?".
oobe.myftp.org/oobe_untitled_postprocessed.mp3 |
|
|
| Rob |
| Yeah, there's alot of compression, and you changed the dynamics a bit (the lead seems more predominant now). But in terms of tonal balance, nothing's different(besides the bass). And what are you using as a reference? You can't master anything unless you have a reference, but if you do, I wouldn't call it mastering. |
|
|
| Rob |
| So yeah, reference track + your track mastered + unmastered on one MP3, then I can comment. |
|
|
| Derivative |
your filehost takes AGES to download from :( but i got there in the end.
its overall louder so its already tricking my ears! the tonal balance does seem to be the same though. the hihats still seem a touch sibilant and dont shimmer in the mix. the kick slams but i reckon it could slam quite a bit more but may require modification in the mixdown. i notice the lead more but i think the ratios are all the same between the lead the kicks/bass and the hats. but overall the whole thing is louder. i think the lead also sounds ever so slightly behind the kick when i think it should sound more at the front. you might be able to force it into the front with a multi band compressor and stereo width tool.
im curious about this reference thing too. im gonna try this tonight or tommorow. |
|
|
| AaroNoct |
These aren't mastering issues. These are things that should be fixed in the mix. I don't think any of you truly know what mastering entails. You'll have less headaches if you get the sound you want from the get go. I can assure you 100% that it's in the mix. The people trying to "fix it in mastering" are doing themselves a great disservice by not applying that time to their mix (where the real problems exist).
I'm not against post mix processing, if armed with experience. Even then, that's not mastering for crying out loud.
Future reference: Don't go around abusing the "M" word please.
-Aaron |
|
|
| Derivative |
have you even bothered to read the thread?
i am aware of what needs to be fixed in the mixdown. the top end on my track needs to come down in the mix down. i also pointed out that some of what rico needs to fix is also in the mixdown. what we are discussing here is the tonal balance of the final result.
we are discovering the limits of this, what results in going too far - what results in not doing enough. overall its a subtle process we are trying to figure out for ourselves. instead of telling us what mastering isnt - how about telling us what it is?
unless you have anything constructive to contribute to the thread - dont bother. just DONT hit the post reply button. this is not a thread where we want people to bust in and wave their dick around in the 'blah blah blah i know what im talking about. you dont know what you are talking about but im not not gonna bother backing the claim up' kind of way. tell us what it is exactly we are doing wrong or minterpreting. provide evidence. example as necessary.
or shut the phuck up. |
|
|
| Rob |
bwhahahha:stongue:
Anyway yes. Mastering (my interpretation of it atleast) is the process of achvieving a tonal/loudness balance against a set of references so it sounds "right". What sounds "right" here is the key factor. Does AaroNoct know how to achieve this "right" sound besides telling us to fix it in mix? I doubt it:stongue: |
|
|
|
|
