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The Pope has died (pg. 4)
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| Chris T. Dot |
| quote: | Originally posted by d-miurge
he wasn't a great man: his shakehand with pinochet, the catastrophe in Africa generated by his positions against the condom, the canonization of the founder of the opus dei. |
It's funny how people blame him for some things, and also expect him to solve the world's problems in some areas. Remember, he was still one man. Blaming the catastrophe in Africa on him is absolutely ridiculous. The problem is so much deeper. People there have to change their whole belief system. People still believe that if you have AIDS and screw a virgin you will be healed. I'm sorry, but you're very ignorant on that issue. What the Pope preached was good in intention. It was rampant random sex and raping that started the catastrophe in Africa, not the lack of condoms. And while maybe he should have loosened his view on condoms, I highly doubt it would have changed much. People here have access to condoms and use them regardless of what he says, and people still choose not to use them and the spread of AIDS and other STDs still exists. |
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| d-miurge |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
I'm sorry, but you're very ignorant on that issue. |
it's not because I don't think like you that i'm an ignorant.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
considering the urgency of the situation, and knowing that the sexuality only for procreation is a ing stupid concept of an impotent sexual (St Paul in fact), I regard this position as criminally idiotic. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
ya, easy to bash him eh? what have you done in your life that compares? |
Michael19 didn't really bash him, he just added some details to the rosy picture of the pope you started out by painting. Whatever he himself has done is irrelevant for his observations.
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
You many not agree with some of what he taught, but he chose to uphold values that he believed to be good in nature. and you know what? he never once forced anyone to follow. you have a choice, exercise it. |
Going for creating the ultimate flame bait and a godwin, I'll say that this quote could just as well be attributed to Hitler: He believed in the survival of the stronger species, as in nature, and he never once forced anyone to follow him. Sure, if you didn't follow him you might end up in kz-camps. But is that really so much worse than spending ages in purgatory - which as you may remember is the punishment for sin? |
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| Michael19 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
ya, easy to bash him eh? what have you done in your life that compares? You many not agree with some of what he taught, but he chose to uphold values that he believed to be good in nature. and you know what? he never once forced anyone to follow. you have a choice, exercise it. |
what has he done in his live that so good? apart from peddle his blatant bigotry and drisciminating views.
As trancaholic has very wisely point out, Hitler "chose to uphold values that he believed to be good in nature." |
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| mezzir |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael19
what has he done in his live that so good? apart from peddle his blatant bigotry and drisciminating views.
As trancaholic has very wisely point out, Hitler "chose to uphold values that he believed to be good in nature." |
haha thats exactly what i thought when i read that, but i usually hesitate before compating people to hitler
for people who agreed with and supported his views, of course he's a great man
basically, he did many things on a large scale
so if you like those things, he was an amazing man
if you don't like those things, well he was just the opposite
its hard to find any middle ground really
i respect the man, but at the same time highly distrust and dislike western religion, and especially catholocism
so of course with that i disagree with what he stood for |
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| Chris T. Dot |
| quote: | Originally posted by d-miurge
it's not because I don't think like you that i'm an ignorant.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
considering the urgency of the situation, and knowing that the sexuality only for procreation is a ing stupid concept of an impotent sexual (St Paul in fact), I regard this position as criminally idiotic. |
Did I say that because you don't think like me that you're ignorant? No. I said that because you're saying his view on condoms resulted in the AIDS disaster in Africa, which is absolutely ridiculous. There are so many other factors that contributed to it that what the Pope said was basically irrelevant to the situation. Look at Brazil, home to millions of deeply Catholic people who defy the Pope's position and use condoms regardless. To say one person helped the catastrophe is idiotic. Did his doctrine change public policy on condom use or anything like that? Think before you say something. |
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| Chris T. Dot |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Hitler: He believed in the survival of the stronger species, as in nature, and he never once forced anyone to follow him. Sure, if you didn't follow him you might end up in kz-camps. But is that really so much worse than spending ages in purgatory - which as you may remember is the punishment for sin? |
Don't even bring Hitler into this. You're now talking about a person would was willing to exterminate life by killing all who opposed or that he thought of an inferior. I think common sense should make anyone realize that what Hitler taught was totally wrong. If you don't follow the Pope's doctrine, nothing happens to you, especially not anything as extreme as if you didn't follow Hitler. And purgatory? That concept never once appeared in the Bible. It originated much later in the church's history. And even if you believe in it, it's a very unclear concept and nothing close to "punishment" |
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| Chris T. Dot |
| quote: | Originally posted by d-miurge
and knowing that the sexuality only for procreation is a ing stupid concept of an impotent sexual (St Paul in fact), I regard this position as criminally idiotic. |
Please show me where he said that sexuality was only for procreation? Why don't you read a little about his writings before answering. The man in his writings about sexuality said it was a gift from God and didn't preach against sex for pleasure. The problem with some of the anti-pope responses is that you people don't even know enough about what he acutally taught and just make assumptions based on traditional conservative religious views. |
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| Michael19 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
Don't even bring Hitler into this. You're now talking about a person would was willing to exterminate life by killing all who opposed or that he thought of an inferior. I think common sense should make anyone realize that what Hitler taught was totally wrong. If you don't follow the Pope's doctrine, nothing happens to you, especially not anything as extreme as if you didn't follow Hitler. And purgatory? That concept never once appeared in the Bible. It originated much later in the church's history. And even if you believe in it, it's a very unclear concept and nothing close to "punishment" |
isnt hell a punishment though? which is what happens when you dont follow what the church says. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
Don't even bring Hitler into this. You're now talking about a person would was willing to exterminate life by killing all who opposed or that he thought of an inferior. I think common sense should make anyone realize that what Hitler taught was totally wrong. |
So that invalidates using him as an example to point out the lack of sense in your initial argument how? Your argument as to why Michael19, or anyone else for that matter, should respect the Pope, applies equally well to Hitler (who we shouldn't respect, I agree). So you should either come up with another argument, or accept that some of us don't respect the Pope, as much as you do, and that we are equally justified in our opinion, as you are in yours.
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
If you don't follow the Pope's doctrine, nothing happens to you, especially not anything as extreme as if you didn't follow Hitler. |
"Nothing. Especially nothing as..." - I think you lost me here. Do you deny that there are consequences for disobeying the Pope, or don't you?
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
And purgatory? That concept never once appeared in the Bible. It originated much later in the church's history. And even if you believe in it, it's a very unclear concept and nothing close to "punishment" |
I'm not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about the Catholic Church for which the Pope was ruler supreme. And the Church *has* been teaching that sinners go to purgatory. And it has been taught to be an experience so horrible, that believers throughout the ages have paid the Church, as well as been making all sorts of symbolic amends, in order to escape this punishment.
You tell me that being sent to a kz-camp is far worse than this, to which I would enquire: Have you been to a kz-camp? In purgatory? At least the kz-camp experience ends - you might even decide how long it should last yourself (suicide). No such guarantee (nor bail-out device) exists for purgatory.
Now, you're perfectly right that for someone like me who is not a Catholic, and consequently doesn't believe in purgatory, there's no consequence for disobeying the Pope (bar being "pre-punished" by religious fundamentalists), but Michael19 wasn't really referring to someone like me, he was talking about the Catholics in Africa and the Bible-wielding crowds in the US, Ireland, and Southern Europe. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
Did I say that because you don't think like me that you're ignorant? No. I said that because you're saying his view on condoms resulted in the AIDS disaster in Africa, which is absolutely ridiculous. There are so many other factors that contributed to it that what the Pope said was basically irrelevant to the situation. |
Well, apperntly the pope is the main man for destroying communism :rolleyes: as much as he is that, he is also responisble for other things. |
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| zig |
I think they have layed off on the purgatory part of teaching religion...and im pretty sure this is the official line...its not mentioned anymore to frighten the crap out of you,especially when we were all younger(catholics that is)
One bit i could never get was the idea of origional sin....you are born with sin...what a guilt trip....you dont have any choice if you are a catholic...you are a sinner from the day you arrive on the planet.....now that has to be one of the best concepts in order to make you feel guilt...its almost as if they want to beat you into submission.....you are a guilty sinner and thats it..............now repent for the rest of your life......AAAAGGHHHHH
auctually now that i say it.....how can you skip purgatory with origional sin........AAAGGGHHHHH......they drive me nuts..... |
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