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Pakistan / Afghanistan dont understand democracy / freedom of speech (pg. 6)
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| zig |
| quote: | Originally posted by wolverine16
Sorry, I had remembered you as being very against the war. :)
I certainly disagreed with the sanctions long ago and obviously Saddam was a bad guy, but human rights & freedom was not the case made before the U.N. in seeking justification nor was it why Americans backed the war. Certainly much more needs to be done to enforce international laws and human rights, but that argument for why the war occurred runs a little thin considering the Geneva conventions are being skirted in how people are being treated in the aftermath. If liberation and human rights really were to justify this war, again, why specifically Iraq wehn so many other countries had and still have worse human rights abuses and ruthless dictators in charge? Regardless of the lack of consistency in the justification of this particular war, the balance between sovreignty and international law is a major dilemma. |
The Americans have gone off the rails as regards international law even now extending as far as the Geneva Convention, not exactly a good example to set your enemies, especially as the American public likes to hold the high moral ground. |
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| wolverine16 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Yea I totally agree with all of that but at the same time there are other factors to take into account (which was my post above)
It is a dilemma and one that is actually enshrined into the UN charter! The UN says sovereignty must be respected, but also the determination of peoples is the other fundamental belief, which are contradictory |
True, which is exactly what I'm trying to get at. A better method has to develop to determine how the will of the people is implemented when the sovreignty of the country goes against that. The U.S. arbitrarily coming along more than 10 years after a war ended and after they aided in part the worst human rights violations even earlier doesn't really seem like that should be the model for enforcement when more current widespread violations exist and greater international threats.
As far as the 1991 resolutions, the challenge made that supposedly required action was because of supposedly failure to eliminate WMDs, failure to destroy a few al samoud missiles that quickly enough because they went several kilometers too far according to treaties seems highly questionable as reason to go to war. We went to the U.N. and demanded for Saddam to list all his WMDs and he listed none, we have still found none and have given up the search for any. I would say countries that opposed the war like France were actually on the correct side considering NOTHING was found! |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by wolverine16
True, which is exactly what I'm trying to get at. A better method has to develop to determine how the will of the people is implemented when the sovreignty of the country goes against that. The U.S. arbitrarily coming along more than 10 years after a war ended and after they aided in part the worst human rights violations even earlier doesn't really seem like that should be the model for enforcement when more current widespread violations exist and greater international threats.
As far as the 1991 resolutions, the challenge made that supposedly required action was because of supposedly failure to eliminate WMDs, failure to destroy a few al samoud missiles that quickly enough because they went several kilometers too far according to treaties seems highly questionable as reason to go to war. We went to the U.N. and demanded for Saddam to list all his WMDs and he listed none, we have still found none and have given up the search for any. I would say countries that opposed the war like France were actually on the correct side considering NOTHING was found! |
The ONLY reason France opposed the war is cos it felt left out and wanted to feel important and powerful... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Which? |
yeah, didn't word that really well. I meant to group them like this:
There's a difference between (a religion and it's teaching) and (the people who claim to follow it). |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by svens_bath
well i should think that as the prime minister of iraq, democratically elected mind, he speaks for the people of iraq?
regardless of where he got his weapons from, the fact that he was killing his own people with them, |
Nom it's very relavent how he obtained those weapons. Stop ignoring facts. And for the last time, WITH US SUPPORT. The US resumed diplomatic relations with him right after he did it so stfu and go do some real research before you embarass yourself again. The US/UK have no ing athourity to use military force to impose a system on goverment on a sovereign nation. This war is just plain theft and facism. You might not give a about the human cost of this war but the Iraqis do.
Iraq Body Count: Min 21,705 Max 24,628
>link<
| quote: | Originally posted by svens_bath
go round iraq and ask the people if theyd rather have saddam back...see what they say. |
Go around Iraq and ask the people if they want US military presence there, bombing the out of thier country and killing thousands of innocent people, raping and torturing innocent people (the prison abuses just being one story that mannaged to find it way into mainstream media). Get this through your head: The Iraqi ppl don't want any of you there. Neigther do they want another puppet goverment. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Go around Iraq and ask the people if they want US military presence there, bombing the out of thier country and killing thousands of innocent people, raping and torturing innocent people (the prison abuses just being one story that mannaged to find it way into mainstream media). Get this through your head: The Iraqi ppl don't want any of you there. Neigther do they want another puppet goverment. |
I'm not sure your in a position to say what Iraqis want unless you've asked them all? I'm certainly not aware of any polls of Iraqi public opinion lately saying one way or another. Dont assume that because there is an insurgeny that they represent the population because they dont. I'm not saying I think they want the US/UK to stay there mind, but what I would venture to say is that people all across the Middle East (the vast majority) strive for democracy and Western values |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I know plently of Arabs, and many of them are in touch with Arabs in the middle-east and they're all agasinst the war and occupation. I don't see why the victims of it would be in favour of US military presence there eigther. I think it's a pretty safe assumption, given that I have a decent understanding of the arab/muslim mindset. And I think you're seriously mistaken in thinking that Arabs want westerm values since they're are certain western values/cultural aspects/whatever, that just don't mix with Islam at all. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I know plently of Arabs, and many of them are in touch with Arabs in the middle-east and they're all agasinst the war and occupation. I don't see why the victims of it would be in favour of US military presence there eigther. I think it's a pretty safe assumption, given that I have a decent understanding of the arab/muslim mindset. And I think you're seriously mistaken in thinking that Arabs want westerm values since they're are certain western values/cultural aspects/whatever, that just don't mix with Islam at all. |
Well I'm not gonna argue whether or not the Iraqis want the troops to stay there cos I honestly dont know (and I'm still not convinced you do too) but I am gonna argue that people across the Middle East do want western values (like democracy). Whether you think those values are compatable with Islam is irrelevent because on the same note, those values are not compatible with Christianity either (the church is supposed to be the highest authority). Your fallinf into the trap of assuming everyone in the Middle East is feverently Islamic, but that is not the tradition in the Middle East. Its probably more religious than Europe (tho I wouldn't say America) but the rise of Islam has been a very modern phenomena (since the late 80s) and before that the tradition has been pan-Arab nationalism - a secular socialist vision. Western values can be applied to the Islamic Middle East as much as they can be applied to the Christian west - just look at Turkey |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said western values. I was thinking about moral, principles, stuff like that, not forms of goverment. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said western values. I was thinking about moral, principles, stuff like that, not forms of goverment. |
I meant the political side of liberalism such as freedom of speech, democracy, accountability, etc
Not sure what you mean by they wouldn't want (our?) morals and principles tho? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Ok, I'll give you a small example, drinking and clubbing. Not exactly very compatible with their religious values. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Ok, I'll give you a small example, drinking and clubbing. Not exactly very compatible with their religious values. |
Well drinking and clubbing is hardly compatible with ANY religion is it?!
And on the subject, American culture (I know, I know, oxymoron!) is extremely popular in the Middle East amongst the younger generation. Here's a quote from an article on anti-americanism from the economist...
| quote: | | Yet Iranians at large, like the French, are not noticably hostile to America. The young in particular seem thoroughly pro-American, revelling in America's popular culture, yearning for its sexual freedoms, some even hoping for an American deliverance to their oppression. Whether the affection runs deep is another matter: pro-Americanism among the young is a form of anti-regime defiance that might evaporate quickly if the country were attacked |
This is a trend I have noticed when reading about feelings towards democracy/western values across the Middle east. You have to put aside Islam and just look at them as ordinary human beings just like you and me - affected by the same desires and the same emotions. You give em what they want (to live like us in the west with all our freedoms) and they'll forget about Islam as quick as we forgot about Christianity...
(my view anyway!!) |
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