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Real Time Collaboration Interfaces in Sequencers?
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| Rob |
After trying the FL collab software, I was bitterly dissapointed at how it wasn't a real time LIVE collaboration interface (Maybe I just got my hopes up for nothing? :()
The convo:
Can two people work on the same Fruity Loops Project at the SAME time and hear it, edit it, tweak it LIVE?
ie. Mix it, throw down more samples
<~c[-.-]p~> no its not a live interface
Only one person can work on it at a time,
Well that's pointless then
:(
Not really
Why can't it be live?!?!?
That would be BRILLIANT
I don't know,
<~c[-.-]p~> it's more of just an exchange thing for people
It would be better if people could edit the file together in real time
<~c[-.-]p~> we should mention this to gol and others
and work on the track together
if it was live then one person would have to wait for the other to finish what they were doing anyway
No they wouldn't
They could hear it live
and make changes to it
That would be REAL live collaboration
<~c[-.-]p~> we talking bout a live interface for collab
what we talkin bout?
oh ok
I think it's a good idea
that'd be cool, but, i think you're thinking too far into the future
maybe talk to a head-person @FLstudio.com
kuz i think it's an awesome idea
it's not that complicated, just add a feature where if two people have the same file, there should be a certain feature where it lets people talk to each other in FL itself
but that would take a lot of work designing for the staff
it is a really good idea though
somebody should bring that up on the collab forum
I'm sure it's been thought of before
probly, but we'll never know til we try
and thinking about the idea and actually trying to make it work are two completely different scenarios
I think it's a great idea
but the trick is to make them think it's a great idea too
Well we're not programmers
But they could do it easily:P
probly
Thoughts? |
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| djyouth |
It can be done already. Without help from the FL Team..
By using Remote Assistance
It has a chat window as well and you can press esc at anytime in case your 'mate' goes crazy and destroys your PC by deleting the windows folder and injecting a virus... Just in case. :D
Good luck with your collabs people ;) |
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| Rob |
heh, yeah:nervous:
I was thinking about something a bit more secure that doesn't give the person you're collaborating with unrestricted access to every aspect of your system:nervous: I was thinking it would be good to collab with just some random person and throw down a few samples you know? |
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| djyouth |
Indeed.
But again, you can stop the whole thing in a tenth of a second by pressing esc or the stop button.
He (or she) won't be able to download or upload files from or to you without your permission anyway.
So it is basically safe unless you have your bankcard information and password as your desktop background. :D
For those who doesn't want to take the risk, it's best to wait for the FL team or just keep out from collabs with strangers. |
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| twisted |
ive never seen that app before. that is going to be VERY usefull. im actually thinking about working with someone/somepeople on a remix of Woob - Strange. I have a VERY unfinished sample. its basicly the original, just cut up, streched so it fits my tempo, with some VERY minor pathetic percussion, it was just a experiment. i got the little vocal in there too. looking for anyone to collab with. im keen on having drums in there, but thats about it. style doesnt really matter. reason i took the chance to post this info here, is because i truthfully dont want That many people replying. just one or two even for a look at the track is all i want. ill let you hear it, like what there is so far, you can take a nab at what i got. its not a big deal, im VERY fond of working alone, and all my projects have been like that so far. the title of the thread just gave me this impulsive idea to ask this impulsive question. heh, thanks.
ps. using fruity loops as the host.
pm me or email me/add me to msn at [email protected] |
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| Corteoz |
Let’s be rational people.
There are many reasons that remote controlled music-production won’t be available for everyone in at least a couple of years.
It requires an insane connection. I’m talking about a connection of minimum 2/2 mbit. That’s what’s called SDSL. The problem is the UPLOADING SPEED. Most countries who have broadband have ADSL where the upload speed is much less than the download speed.
Just to make you understand why you need a good connection:
If you are the host of the session.
- You have to send a copy of you screen every nth seconds. Let’s say you have a refresh rate that sends pictures to your friend one time per second. You’re using a 1024x768 desktop resolution. With some heavy JPG compressing (noticeably grainy image) you get a picture that’s around 6 kb (and that’s with 1024x768, which is a “low” resolution for many). That’s not really a problem. You just need to accept that a smooth gradient on your screen will be a set of single colored bars on your mates screen. If you’re saying “why don’t you resize the pics before sending”. Well, that would require some CPU-power, and when already hosting a remote-controlling client and using a music application, you should spare some CPU for the music app.
So at this point we’re using around 6kb/s if we’re compressing the hell out of every image we send.
I estimate around 20kb/s for a high quality pictures.
- You have to stream the music for your mate. When producing music, isn’t the point that the music should be of high quality? Imagine EQ-ing or compressing with 128 kbps quality. If you’re new to producing, this won’t be a problem since tweaking is an art that has to be learned with time. To achieve an “acceptable” result when mixing and tweaking, you need at least 360kbps. I’m aware that the audio is often compressed when streaming.
I’m not sure how much bandwidth is use, so I won’t say. But I’m sure it’s around 30kb/s at 360kbps. When streaming there’s a buffer, and when buffering you loose the whole point with real-time tweaking. So we have to look away from traditional streaming, and look at raw data transmission. We now have a problem, if we were to send 360kbps uncompressed, the size of the data sent per second would amazingly be 360kb/s. Do you have 4 mbit upload? Do all your friends have it?
Well, I’m not an expert on sending audio, but that’s the biggest obstacle for live music production!
- The friend you’re working with also send you some data, but I doubt that will be a big problem since all the things he does can be transformed into binary data and sent.
Also, the host needs a high end computer to handle all the tasks. I’m talking about P4 > 3.4 or AMD64 (with 64 bit O/S) and 1gb RAM and etc.
I’m just saying that music production across the internet isn’t for everyone yet, but in time it’ll be possible! |
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| Rob |
There's NO WAY you would you need a fast connection Corteoz, not with a proper collaboration interface. Infact you could probably run it on 56k.
This is how I envisage it.
The sequencer (which we'll pretend is Reason) will have everything controllable via midi and a special intstruction set used for collaboration only.
Two people connect to each other, and via the instruction set, will enable you to control every aspect of the same project you BOTH have up on your screen. If one person adds a synth, a few bytes will be sent to the other person instructing their sequencer to do the same.
This could be done easily on a 56k connection and would be faster then webcam conferencing, as nothing is streamed. It's merely an instruction set for triggering events within the sequencer (adding a sampler, a reverb unit etc).
Samples are a bit more tedious to work with. If one person arranges the percussion samples, sequences it in the redrum, then the samples will have to be sent as each person adds a particular sample.
So in summary, no streaming is done whatsoever, and the whole system primarily runs on triggering both collab sequencers at the same time. Sure there will be some latecy issues, but it shouldn't be worse then say....
50000ms
:nervous: |
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| Corteoz |
That's always a possibility, but I was talking about remote controlling.
And don't come here and say that you can send HIGH QUALITY audio/images through a 56k line realtime! :-P
There's always the possibility that one can send only the instructions for the program, but then it's critical that both users have the same software and versions. Both the hosts and VSTs.
I was really disapointed with Collab. IMHO it doesn't have more functionality than a random IRC client. It doesn't even log or announce changes done! I'm just an automation lover...
Maybe there's time for a programming collabration on TA?
A host that can handle Reason, FL, Cubase and so on... It is possible if we use a ReWire SDK or something. The program are programmed to interact with eachother to a certain extent via. MIDI. Maybe a remote (internet) controlled MIDI interface. :-D Get some sponsors and stuff.
All this with features like: "Sync samples" 'n stuff! |
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| Dickie-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Corteoz
And don't come here and say that you can send HIGH QUALITY audio/images through a 56k line realtime! :-P |
well that's not necesairy, because both collaborating users have the synth in their fl opened, so it synthesizes in their own pc, all that is sent over the internet is changes to knobs, and note changes etc etc....
So it would be just a few bytes each time |
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| DigiNut |
It's already established that you don't need a high-bandwidth or low-latency connection to transmit the graphics - just look at MS's Remote Desktop in XP/2003 (I believe they actually licensed Citrix technology for this, and so could Steinberg/Imageline/Apple/Digidesign if they wanted to).
So the only real question is sound streaming. which I agree is tricky, but certainly not impossible. A decent broadband connection has at least 320 kbps upstream, and very few people can hear the difference in sound at 192 kbps. Given that it takes about 1 minute to encode a 10-minute MP3 at this quality, it could DEFINITELY be done in realtime.
Besides, when most people think of collaboration, they're probably thinking of the mix and not the master - 128k or even 64k is more than sufficent for the production stages which don't require attention to fine detail, assuming you've got someone on the other end whom you trust not to let it sound like total e.
Personally, I think the real reason that collab hasn't been implemented to any significant extent is because there isn't much demand for it. It's something I would classify as "neat" - a feature that is cool but would seldom be used, because different producers usually have different creative directions that can't be expressed too well over the computer. |
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| Rob |
| quote: | Originally posted by Corteoz
That's always a possibility, but I was talking about remote controlling.
And don't come here and say that you can send HIGH QUALITY audio/images through a 56k line realtime! :-P
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Yeah, you said: "There are many reasons that remote controlled music-production won’t be available for everyone in at least a couple of years". Why on earth not? No high quality images or audio has to be sent, just the mere tiny miniscule bytes of instructions that trigger events within the sequencer.
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
So the only real question is sound streaming. |
No audio is being streamed. Nothing bigger then 30kb's will ever be sent unless one person doesn't have a sample, or a particular soundbank etc. |
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| DigiNut |
You'd be surprised at how much data gets sent back and forth between hosts, VST, sequencers, etc. It's anything but "miniscule". Open up your process list and take a look at how quickly the memory usage is changing for your flstudio.exe or cubasesx.exe - that'll give you some basic idea as to how many bits and bytes are getting pushed around.
Besides, the concept you're talking about would only work if both people were using all-software studios. What if someone is using hardware? And even though most people here probably don't care about this, it would get pretty expensive as both people would need to have their hosts/instruments/etc. fully licensed.
It makes no difference anyway, because audio streaming would not be that difficult. The real problem is demand. |
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