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Muslim 'Moderates' And Terrorism (pg. 2)
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| kush paintings |
| I'm tired of this, oh well we don't look at the terrorists viewpoint enough. Yes, we ing do, its just that the neocons have decided to ignore that. The reason the U.S. and England were attacked was because we are on Muslim's holy land. Bin Ladden in his declaration for a jihad said they would not stop fighting until we were off of their land. Now, that is where the U.S. is guilty, for sticking its nose in places where it can get bitten. The next person that says the twin towers deserve to get bitten will get back slapped through their DSL line. Quit sypmathizing with the actions that some extremist Muslims have taken. No innocent people deserve to die. Yes, it is a consequence of invading their Holy Land, but it is an entirely different thing to say they deserved it (by the way I am refering to a quote in another thread, too lazy to find it). The method that extremist Muslims have chosen to get the U.S. and others off of their proclaimed holy land is not acceptable, just as the U.S. actions of invading their land isn't either. Its a two-sided deal, so enough with defending "your side" or blindly agruing a stance. We must examine what both sides have done wrong before we can move forward, not one or the other. The reason why we are where we are today is because both sides haven't looked inwards to ask, am I doing the right thing? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
How the do you conclude from that that I in any way approve of attrocities carried out on the West? Pointing out the cause of a crime doesn't mean you sympathise the criminal and approve of his actions. |
like i said in my first post, these "injustices" that you desribed and the "injustices" that the hero desribes in his declaration of war
are totally irrational.
it's just something you two, apparently, had in common at one time before, i guess, you may have realized what you had typed?
whatever. he said it before you did anyway. i don't blame you for wanting to distance youself from that now. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
be my guest
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Well, here's a small list of state sponsored terrorism by the US (and let me emphasize on how small this list is):
1946 - U.S. opens School of the Americas in Panama. Now located in Fort Benning, Georgia, the School of the Assassins has taught over 60,000 personnel from some of the worlds most brutal regimes how to subvert the truth, to muzzle union leaders, activist clergy, and journalists, and to make war on their own people.
1951- CIA is involved in a coup to overthrow nationalist primeminister Dr. Muhammed Mossadeq in Iran. Supports Iranian military in massacre of Mossadeq supporters and returns the Shah to power. In 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet, and that the number and variety of torture techniques the CIA had taught SAVAK were "beyond belief."
1951- CIA involved in terror campaign against democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. After Arbenz government is overthrown, CIA backed regimes murder more than 100,000 Guatemalans over the next 40 years
1961- CIA recruits 1500 Cuban exiles to invade Cuba and overthrow the Castro regime. The Pay of Pigs invasion would be a disaster, however the CIA would continue with more than two dozen attempts to kill Castro.
1963 - The CIA have South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the north. After 20 years of covert war the U.S. turns to direct military invasion, in a war that costs tens of thousands of Vietnemese, Cambodian and U.S. lives
1963- CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.
1965- CIA provokes a coup that leads to the overthrow of Indonesian leader Sukarno, who is replaced by General Suharto. In the following weeks between 500,000 and one million people are murdered by death squads using lists provided by US State Department.
1973- After interfering in Chilean elections in 1958 and 1964, the CIA begins a campaign of sabotage and terror after leftist Salvadore Allende is elected president in 1970. In 1973 , a CIA supported coup overthrew and assassinated Allende and installed fascist General Pinochet, resulting in thousands of murders over the next two decades. This year in France, former U.S. secretary of state, Henry Kissinger was served a (mostly symbolic) warrant for arrest as a war criminal for his role in the coup.
1979- After Nicaraguan dictator Samosa is overthrown in 1979, the CIA s National Guard into death squads known as the Contras. The Contras are used to terrorize rural Nicaragua while the US military blockades Nicaragua's harbours with mines. In 1989, after 10,000 deaths, the US is successful in ousting the Sandanista government.
1989- US invades Panama to overthrow and 'arrest' Manuel Noriega, who has been on the CIA payroll since 1966 and supported through decades of drug running, political assassination and corrupt elections. After the invasion, which included the fire bombing of an entire urban ghetto, human rights observers uncover mass graves and estimate that over 4,000 died during the invasion.
1991- US and allies (mostly Britain) invade Iraq after U.S./CIA supported Sadam Hussein invades Kuwait. 200,000 Iraqis are killed, including over 400 civilians killed by two U.S. missiles in the Al-Amerya air shelter. Over the next 10 years another 400 tons of explosives will be dropped on Iraq killing another 300 civilians, and hundreds of thousands more starved through U.S. imposed sanctions. The U.S. forces Saudi Arabia to allow thousands of U.S. military to remain indefinetely within its boarders.
1998- Al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan is bombed without warning by 13 U.S. cruise missiles killing a janitor. The attack deprives Sudan of desperately needed medical drugs and potentially killing tens of thousands of people. The CIA later admits that information linking the plant to Osama bin Laden was probably 'incorrect'.
I haven't even mentioned the US constant support for Israeli agression and terrorism, as that's another topic altogether. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| If you really want me to, I can take out the time and make a much larger list. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by kush paintings
I'm tired of this, oh well we don't look at the terrorists viewpoint enough. Yes, we ing do, its just that the neocons have decided to ignore that. The reason the U.S. and England were attacked was because we are on Muslim's holy land. Bin Ladden in his declaration for a jihad said they would not stop fighting until we were off of their land. Now, that is where the U.S. is guilty, for sticking its nose in places where it can get bitten. The next person that says the twin towers deserve to get bitten will get back slapped through their DSL line. Quit sypmathizing with the actions that some extremist Muslims have taken. No innocent people deserve to die. Yes, it is a consequence of invading their Holy Land, but it is an entirely different thing to say they deserved it (by the way I am refering to a quote in another thread, too lazy to find it). The method that extremist Muslims have chosen to get the U.S. and others off of their proclaimed holy land is not acceptable, just as the U.S. actions of invading their land isn't either. Its a two-sided deal, so enough with defending "your side" or blindly agruing a stance. We must examine what both sides have done wrong before we can move forward, not one or the other. The reason why we are where we are today is because both sides haven't looked inwards to ask, am I doing the right thing? |
just to add a small point (though not to be marginalized for puposes to support the ideas irrationality) it was never the hero's "land" to begin with. he was expatiated from the Arabian peninsula. the Saudis wanted us, though temporary, to defend from the peninsula. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by kush paintings
We must examine what both sides have done wrong before we can move forward, not one or the other. The reason why we are where we are today is because both sides haven't looked inwards to ask, am I doing the right thing? |
That's a healthy attitude that unfortunately very few people adopt.
Alot of people try to justify their "sides" stance and aren't interesting in objectively looking at the situation/problem and it's cause, like Q5echo.
BTW, can anyone here name one superpower/empire/whatever that hasn't abused it power and carried out attrocities agaisnt other parties? Has history taught us nothing at all? Power corrupts, and unchecked power is even more dangerous. What makes anyone think that the US is any exception? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Well, here's a small list of state sponsored terrorism by the US (and let me emphasize on how small this list is):
1946 - U.S. opens School of the Americas in Panama. Now located in Fort Benning, Georgia, the School of the Assassins has taught over 60,000 personnel from some of the worlds most brutal regimes how to subvert the truth, to muzzle union leaders, activist clergy, and journalists, and to make war on their own people.
1951- CIA is involved in a coup to overthrow nationalist primeminister Dr. Muhammed Mossadeq in Iran. Supports Iranian military in massacre of Mossadeq supporters and returns the Shah to power. In 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet, and that the number and variety of torture techniques the CIA had taught SAVAK were "beyond belief."
1951- CIA involved in terror campaign against democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. After Arbenz government is overthrown, CIA backed regimes murder more than 100,000 Guatemalans over the next 40 years
1961- CIA recruits 1500 Cuban exiles to invade Cuba and overthrow the Castro regime. The Pay of Pigs invasion would be a disaster, however the CIA would continue with more than two dozen attempts to kill Castro.
1963 - The CIA have South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the north. After 20 years of covert war the U.S. turns to direct military invasion, in a war that costs tens of thousands of Vietnemese, Cambodian and U.S. lives
1963- CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.
1965- CIA provokes a coup that leads to the overthrow of Indonesian leader Sukarno, who is replaced by General Suharto. In the following weeks between 500,000 and one million people are murdered by death squads using lists provided by US State Department.
1973- After interfering in Chilean elections in 1958 and 1964, the CIA begins a campaign of sabotage and terror after leftist Salvadore Allende is elected president in 1970. In 1973 , a CIA supported coup overthrew and assassinated Allende and installed fascist General Pinochet, resulting in thousands of murders over the next two decades. This year in France, former U.S. secretary of state, Henry Kissinger was served a (mostly symbolic) warrant for arrest as a war criminal for his role in the coup.
1979- After Nicaraguan dictator Samosa is overthrown in 1979, the CIA s National Guard into death squads known as the Contras. The Contras are used to terrorize rural Nicaragua while the US military blockades Nicaragua's harbours with mines. In 1989, after 10,000 deaths, the US is successful in ousting the Sandanista government.
1989- US invades Panama to overthrow and 'arrest' Manuel Noriega, who has been on the CIA payroll since 1966 and supported through decades of drug running, political assassination and corrupt elections. After the invasion, which included the fire bombing of an entire urban ghetto, human rights observers uncover mass graves and estimate that over 4,000 died during the invasion.
1991- US and allies (mostly Britain) invade Iraq after U.S./CIA supported Sadam Hussein invades Kuwait. 200,000 Iraqis are killed, including over 400 civilians killed by two U.S. missiles in the Al-Amerya air shelter. Over the next 10 years another 400 tons of explosives will be dropped on Iraq killing another 300 civilians, and hundreds of thousands more starved through U.S. imposed sanctions. The U.S. forces Saudi Arabia to allow thousands of U.S. military to remain indefinetely within its boarders.
1998- Al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan is bombed without warning by 13 U.S. cruise missiles killing a janitor. The attack deprives Sudan of desperately needed medical drugs and potentially killing tens of thousands of people. The CIA later admits that information linking the plant to Osama bin Laden was probably 'incorrect'.
I haven't even mentioned the US constant support for Israeli agression and terrorism, as that's another topic altogether. |
as a neocon, i will suport any efforts inside this hemisphere to smash the rise of communism and to protect the integrity of the canal.
Bin Laden, by all rights, followed the exact same suit in Afghanistan. and succeeded.
those cruise missles that were sent by Clinton into Sudan were in retaliation. and was supposed to take out Bin Laden himself and other terroriist leaders that were meeting there. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
as a neocon, i will suport any efforts inside this hemisphere to smash the rise of communism and to protect the integrity of the canal.
Bin Laden, by all rights, followed the exact same suit in Afghanistan. and succeeded.
those cruise missles that were sent by Clinton into Sudan were in retaliation. and was supposed to take out Bin Laden himself and other terroriist leaders that were meeting there. |
So you support terrorism as long as it's being carried out by your "team". Hypocrite. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
BTW, can anyone here name one superpower/empire/whatever that hasn't abused it power and carried out attrocities agaisnt other parties? Has history taught us nothing at all? Power corrupts, and unchecked power is even more dangerous. What makes anyone think that the US is any exception? |
would be a valid question if the only people that died at the hands of Jihad were American:rolleyes:
so now you're all about the struggle against the establishment? people in power can't be trusted? is that the core of your frustration?
don't get me wrong. i question the motives of Jihad all the time. i wonder why most Muslims don't believe in the motives of Jihad and it's irrationality. because the bottom line is it doesn't matter what you or i think as psuedo-intellectuals looking at the global struggle (seriously, no pun intended) from the outside. it's what the state of Islam thinks and what they are going to do about it. it is right to resist Extremism. to resist is to sacrifice. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
So you support terrorism as long as it's being carried out by your "team". Hypocrite. |
i guess so
are you a communist? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
i guess so
are you a communist? |
:stongue: :haha:
no, I'm not a communist |
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| Q5echo |
| well i would go out on a limb that Mark Zapezauer is and wouldn't believe half of what he exagerates. i'm not saying certain things didn't happen under the covert war against communism, but lets just say his word is not gospel. |
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