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Future PM of Canada (pg. 5)
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| MarkT |
I suspect you'll be addressing him as PM Paul Martin for the forseeable future, judging by the incompetence of the Conservative leadership ;)
but hey, that's probably just my "Liberal arrogance" talking there...lol |
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| b4k-oz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
No need for surprises.
I grew up in Western Canada and any Western Canadian will tell you, we had no love for the man.
Amusing and a character as he was in a dull Canadian politic environment, his track record was abysmal at best...
I'm far from being anti-patriotic; Canada is the best country in the world bar-none but I failed to see the love affair.
If you're questioning as to why, this article pretty much sums a lot of the main points.
(I'm sure Diginut and few others can concur and/or add to this list).
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LOL \O/ ... that you would actually suggest Nut and others can concur. That has to be the worst selection of credible people in this entire site LOL
As for your claim of being far from anti-patriotic...take a good look in the mirror my friend. If your happy with what you see, then good for you...but frankly I find your opinion to be extremely disrespectful.
However, I can totally understand your need to express yourself this way..cuz your still pretty young and I am even more certain, with your opinion, that you were never a history or poli-sci major ...so IMO you have a lot to learn and a lot to be greatful for.
Oh and re your rebuttal...whatever
:rolleyes: |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
this "biased media" bull is getting *really* tiring...the Liberals are not perpetually in gov't and the ENTIRE ING MEDIA is not in cahoots with the Liberal party. |
Nobody's saying that they're in kahoots with the Liberal party (half of them are American-based anyway), but there are enough statistics to prove that most journalists are more than a little to the left. I don't have them handy but IIRC over 80% identify themselves as Democrats (or Liberal/NDP) and the last time any of the major news outlets endorsed a Republican or Conservative leader was over 30 years ago. Journalists are almost always liberal types - come on, even you know that Mark.
The problem is, you're interpreting the comments about bias as some kind of conspiracy - nobody's saying that, it's more a severe case of groupthink than anything else. It's a largely unconscious political polarization, a lot of which is resulting from the fact that they just steal all their news from the New York Times, but more subtly is a result of always being around people with identical beliefs and never hearing the opposing view.
| quote: | Originally posted by b4k-oz
LOL \O/ ... that you would actually suggest Nut and others can concur. That has to be the worst selection of credible people in this entire site LOL |
Is that so? Frankly I believe I've demonstrated a very high level of education and credibility, which is more than I can say for most Liberal supporters here arguing ad hominem against the Conservative government and us "right-wing nuts" in general (despite the fact that I'm very close to center). Aside from MarkT, Moral Hazard and ChemEnhanced, I haven't seen anyone here put forth a reasonably intelligent argument in favour of the Liberals or Left politics in general. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by b4k-oz
LOL \O/ ... that you would actually suggest Nut and others can concur. That has to be the worst selection of credible people in this entire site LOL
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Why? Does his intellectual posts scare you?
Oh right, this is a trance board, there aren't supposed to be any intelligent conversation here... :rolleyes:
| quote: |
As for your claim of being far from anti-patriotic...take a good look in the mirror my friend. If your happy with what you see, then good for you...but frankly I find your opinion to be extremely disrespectful.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at? :conf:
How was I being disrespectful? To be disrespectful you have to have respect for the subject at hand...
Other than the title he held, that would be about it.
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However, I can totally understand your need to express yourself this way..cuz your still pretty young and I am even more certain, with your opinion, that you were never a history or poli-sci major ...so IMO you have a lot to learn and a lot to be greatful for.
Oh and re your rebuttal...whatever
:rolleyes: |
Dood, sorry but you're totally lost; I'm a lot older than you think and I think you're thinking of somebody else...
The fact that I didn't waste my time in school with General Arts, History or Poli-Sci doesn't preclude me from having an opinion.
Unless you have lived out West during the Trudeau rein, you'd have no idea of the distain for him out there.
Was he a great Canadian political icon? Prehaps.
However, "What you do speaks so loud, what you say, I don't hear" rules in my books and in that my friend, is where my judgement lies... |
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| b4k-oz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Why? Does his intellectual posts scare you?
I'm not sure what you're getting at? :conf:
How was I being disrespectful? |
LOL Fire...and chill. Nothing in here scares me in the least LOL. As for the respect thing. Well I'm not going to explain it to you ...cuz you've already made it clear that you see it your way no matter what.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Dood, sorry but you're totally lost; I'm a lot older than you think and I think you're thinking of somebody else...
The fact that I didn't waste my time in school with General Arts, History or Poli-Sci doesn't preclude me from having an opinion.
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My my how fast we forget Fir3start3r.
Firstly it's not dood it's Pat.
Secondly...LOL...no your not older than me..but you most definately are thinking of someone else rather than me LOL.
And for the record..I don't consider my History or Poli-Sci studies as a waste of my time. But thanks for pointing out that you think our education system is useless.
Note to DigiNut: Don't drag me into your sad little argument world. I know you think your right and your entitled to your opinion..but seriously you need to take it down a notch or two cuz after reading the same thing over and over again...your beginning to sound like a broken record.
:p |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
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The problem is, you're interpreting the comments about bias as some kind of conspiracy - nobody's saying that, it's more a severe case of groupthink than anything else. It's a largely unconscious political polarization, a lot of which is resulting from the fact that they just steal all their news from the New York Times, but more subtly is a result of always being around people with identical beliefs and never hearing the opposing view.
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I agree with the groupthink that exists...but don't you get the impression that some people here act as if there IS a media conspiracy?
I further feel that some people are implying that media bias is a signicant explanation (excuse) for Harper's inability to lead the Conservatives to power.
Groupthink can be a problem...but then it's the opposition's job to combat that groupthink. More people here seem to be content in crying "media bias" than addressing Harper's shortcomings as party leader.
The double standards are funny. There are those who claim that Liberal supporters are such only because they dislike Harper...yet there are Conservative supporters who don't mention Harper at all in their discussions, they just negatively react to Martin. Isn't this why the Conservatives are failing to win over the people? Because they're spending too much time crying "scandal" and not enough time telling us why we should vote Conservative? Don't tell me it's because the Liberals are crooks...I know what happened. Tell me why I should want Stephen Harper or Jack Layton as PM. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
I agree with the groupthink that exists...but don't you get the impression that some people here act as if there IS a media conspiracy?
I further feel that some people are implying that media bias is a signicant explanation (excuse) for Harper's inability to lead the Conservatives to power.
Groupthink can be a problem...but then it's the opposition's job to combat that groupthink. More people here seem to be content in crying "media bias" than addressing Harper's shortcomings as party leader.
The double standards are funny. There are those who claim that Liberal supporters are such only because they dislike Harper...yet there are Conservative supporters who don't mention Harper at all in their discussions, they just negatively react to Martin. Isn't this why the Conservatives are failing to win over the people? Because they're spending too much time crying "scandal" and not enough time telling us why we should vote Conservative? Don't tell me it's because the Liberals are crooks...I know what happened. Tell me why I should want Stephen Harper or Jack Layton as PM. |
Good post. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by b4k-oz
LOL Fire...and chill. Nothing in here scares me in the least LOL. As for the respect thing. Well I'm not going to explain it to you ...cuz you've already made it clear that you see it your way no matter what.
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Astute but also the point. ;)
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My my how fast we forget Fir3start3r.
Firstly it's not dood it's Pat.
Secondly...LOL...no your not older than me..but you most definately are thinking of someone else rather than me LOL.
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I didn't say I was older than you, just older than you may be thinking I am...
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And for the record..I don't consider my History or Poli-Sci studies as a waste of my time. But thanks for pointing out that you think our education system is useless. |
I've two words for our education system; guaranteed debt. (that's about all they guarantee.)
Don't agree?
How many people who went to college/university are actually working in their field of study? How many had to take computer classes after studying just to be job material? (<-- This probably won't be a problem nowadays but the few years around my graduating class, a LOT of people had to do this...)
I'm not even going to go into this in detail because it's really a whole different topic but you can see where I lie on this subject as well... |
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| b4k-oz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I didn't say I was older than you, just older than you may be thinking I am... |
Nope...I wasn't thinking you were a young 20's guy. So your wrong on that assumption :)
| quote: |
I've two words for our education system; guaranteed debt. (that's about all they guarantee.)
Don't agree?... |
Well I disagree...I happen to think our education system is quite good and I have no regrets. Furthermore, I think it's quite valuable in building character...such as the Michael Ignatieff's of today.
The only time it faulters is when a person develops a condescending tone and thinks themselves too highly or tries to impose their belief to be above others. However, that trait can also be an individuals own insecurity or ignorance...and it often leads to suggestive retorts or comments "aside from....I haven't seen anyone...(meaning "you"--->anyone)...put forth a reasonably intelligent argument..." Ahahahahaa to think that a person believes themselves to be the judge of what is intelligent is quite amusing to read.
But then that's what this site is about...it's about amusement...through music, expression and laughter. It's all good -->so long as we remember to not offend (ex: "God help us all if he was a Trudeau supporter") & respect others while checking our ego's <--especially before hitting the "Reply"
This site is hardly the place for a real political debate :tongue3 :stongue: :toothless |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
actually most media is quite biased in the liberal's favour.
It makes me sick how they spin stories around. |
You know, this really bothers me. I've tried and tried and I am yet to find a media outlet other then the CBC or Toronto Star that shows any Liberal bias. In fact, if one were to listen to talk radio one would be hard pressed to find a single left of centre host save for John Moore. This Liberal media thing is a tired old cliche.... it is a vestage of a by gone time where the media was in fact left of centre but it is no longer the case. Moreover, even if the reporters are seemingly left of centre the same long standing conventional wisdom and experience tells us that the editorial staff and media owners are right of centre. In the end it all washes out. The Liberal media is simply the rallying cry of ideologically right winged persons who cannot comprehend why it is that the rest of the country does not think the same as they do. I find this to be extremely arrogant and shows a severe lack of understanding for viewpoints other then their own. Both of those things are realities that result in a general reticence to hand over the reigns of government to the conservatives. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
Jay...if the media is so biased and so damaging to every party but the Liberals...then explain the past success of the Conservatives? How did Mulroney manage to lead a majority gov't? Has the media really changed THAT much in the last dozen years that it's impossible to overcome their awful bias?
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Mark, I'll take a stab at this one as this leftward leaning media contention was part of my studies in political science.......
..... The notion of leftward leaning media originated in the United States during the early part of the last century. At that time the majority of journalists were university educated whereas the bulk of the populace was rural and had no post secondary (or even secondary) education. Then as now higher education tends to produce more socially oriented thinkers (as only those with higher education are exposed to the writings of social phillosophers, particullarly Owen and Marx). Subsequently, there was a large clevege between the political ideology of the journalists and their audience. The journalists attempted to sway people to their thinking by being favourable (or at least less critical) to leftward leaning polititions and thinkers. This became very pronounced during the communist revolution in Russia and even more so during the lead up to and immediate aftermath of the second world war.
Since that time conventional political wisdom has dictated that the media is leftward leaning. At a time this was in fact the case, however, it no longer is (or at very least the clevege is minimal). Due to increasing numbers of people entering higher education and the broader dissemination of socialist ideas/writings/philosophy society as a whole has moved toward the left of the political spectrum. This has resulted in the centre of the modern political spectrum being more in line with (classical) conservativism (that of Hobbes), which is left (on the spectrum) of the former prevailing ideological stance of (classical) liberalism (that of Locke). The end result is that the centre today is in line with what the left was in 1914.
The media today is more in line with the centre of the modern political spectrum. Now, to those who are slow to change this would seem as though the media were still leftward leaning. The unfortunate truth for those on the right is that society as a whole is leftward leaning compared to 90 years ago. Since the centre of the political spectrum is defined by the ideological stand point of the majority of those that comprise the political culture the media is not leftward leaning by current standards. |
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| nacarter |
Good Post Moral, let me add a little more too it.
Most Canadian right wing analysts base the assertion of a 'liberal media' on a study done by Cooper and Miljan for the Fraser Institute a few years ago. This study trotted out the point that most newsmakers were liberal in their voting patterns and supported the liberal end of political discourse (i.e. support abortion rights, alternative family arrangements, affirmative action, etc.).
This study was so fundamentally flawed, that none of it could be printed in an academic journal. And no, before somebody starts, there is no liberal bias conspiracy theories that apply in a meaningful way to academic journals. Dr. Ted Morton at the University of Calgary has never had problems getting his articles criticizing the Supreme Court of political activism printed. The same goes with clinical trials results from the major drug companies.
As for the Cooper and Miljan study, they filtered out all evidence that would have countered the claim of liberal bias. For instance, small market media outlets were excluded. Let's face it, the base of conservative support is in small towns and rural areas. Also biasing this study is the emphasis on Ontario and Quebec outlets, ignoring more conservative regions of the country.
Cooper and Miljan have also created a false link between publishers political leanings and the content of their newspapers. The most obvious example from this study was the Asper family. Yes, they are Liberal voters, candidates and supporters, however, their newspapers and TV News does not reflect a liberal bias, rather one that is centrist, if not slightly conservative in its bias.
This study is so flawed, I used it in my Intro Research Methods class to demonstrate to my students common Type I and Type II research errors. That conservative pundits still use it to defend their 'liberal bias' accusation is laughable - more homework needs to be done. |
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