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Best Software for Beginning Prog Producer? (pg. 2)
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Ableton Live
Sorry, but beginners shouldn't be touching this thing with a 10-foot pole. I'm afraid to touch it. Ableton does not yet have the efficiency or stability to be a professional-grade sequencer (for example, one friend said that when he uses the freeze function, it renders but doesn't actually turn off the instrument, which means it's still consuming CPU!). Ableton fanatics can yell and scream at me all they want, but there's a reason it's called Ableton LIVE, and that's that it's for LIVE ACTS. It excels at taking existing sounds and loops and putting them together with new effects in new ways. In other words, the only people who should be using this are experienced producers with a fairly large body of self-made, high-quality material that can be chopped up and spliced back together.
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Couldnt disagree more there and I'm not an Ableton Fanatic. I've used Logic, CubaseVST and SX so maybe I'd be considered to be experienced, maybe not. Who cares. But Over the space of 10 hours I managed to get a friend who's only music experience had been assembling remixes on Playstation 2's Music Maker working with it. I showed him the essentials and gave him some samples and vsts and he went away and finished a track in it. He calls me up occcasionally for advice, but generally he says its a lot easier than he thought it would be. I've been using it for about 6 months and the stripped down features and fast workflow are why I would recommend it for beginners. Its not a pro grade sequencer though and I dont think thats what its aimed at... yet.
Also I'm using version 5 and I can verify that the freeze function does indeed work fine. The only gripe I could possibly have with the program is in its midi editing functions and quality of sound sometimes. I find it slightly harder to get a good master out of it than from cubase. A problem I circumvent by doing my final master in SX.
:D |
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| DJDIRTY |
| quote: | | Are you telling this to me, or just to readers in general? Believe me, I know *very well* how to use Cubase! All my recent tracks have been done in Cubase. My point is just that it's not good for beginners! I consider it the best software available on PC, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still some VERY valid criticisms. |
Ohh no, not you, users in general. i am sure you know about that, hehe, i am not trying to get in some argument, it's just my opinion.. My experiance with cubase is somwhat problem free. which I really like.. But peple have problems.. and that's normal.. |
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| sk3zebot |
you guys are great, thx for all the advice...
i've installed Ableton but it doesn't make much sense to me yet, even after checking out the tutorials [my production exp. level = beginner/intermediate]. i've used fruity loops before, but more for producing hip-hop (gave that up, thank god)... don't really know where to conjure up good techy-sound samples though > with hip-hop it's like you can snag a good sample from an orchestrated piece, throw a drumloop to it and you're good. anyways ableton seems alright thus far, maybe i just need to stare at it longer until it clicks. once upon a time i had reason 2.5 and that was wayy overwhelming. as for cubase, logic, and the others, perhaps i'll look into them.
are sample cds really the way to go when it comes to these techy-house / prog sounds i'm after? if so, does anyone have any good rec's on sites to obtain them from, and if not, where should i look? thanks again!
p.s. i started out with Music Generator for PS1, and although it's super-basic you'd be surprised with what you can make with it given the right amount of time.. the on-disc bass is hella weak though. the ps2 version is even weaker. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Axolotyl
Couldnt disagree more there and I'm not an Ableton Fanatic.
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I've been using it for about 6 months and the stripped down features and fast workflow are why I would recommend it for beginners. Its not a pro grade sequencer though and I dont think thats what its aimed at... yet. |
You're probably right, but I think we're talking about different things here.
I don't recommend against Ableton Live for beginners because it's difficult to use - I recommend against it because the way it's designed (i.e. around live performances) really doesn't get people to think about the way tracks are put together from start to finish. I find it very nonlinear (for lack of a better word) and it's really easy to get caught up in the screwing-around without thinking about the big picture.
It seems like I'm always seeing relatively inexperienced producers getting into Ableton and suddenly thinking they are the . Either that or DJs using it to beatmatch and claiming that they're doing "Live PAs". Not that any of these people don't have the potential to do great things production-wise, but since Ableton does a lot of things *for* you behind the scenes, users seem to be traipsing through "advanced" territory without really understanding the fundamentals or exactly what's going on behind the scenes.
Let's put it this way - it can be a wonderful tool in the right hands, but powerfully evil in the wrong ones. The ability to do certain things without having to think about them is seductive but ultimately becomes a crutch, and makes it even harder to fill in the learning gaps later on.
It's just my opinion. I don't have anything against Ableton Live, at all. It's great software. I just think it's starting to become a bit of a fad amongst producers and DJs (now that Sasha's doing it, everyone wants to do it), and fads are just plain dangerous. People need to realize that screwing around with loops and samples in Ableton is not a substitute for learning how to produce seriously, but merely complementary to it.
| quote: | Originally posted by sk3zebot
are sample cds really the way to go when it comes to these techy-house / prog sounds i'm after? if so, does anyone have any good rec's on sites to obtain them from, and if not, where should i look? thanks again! |
Not really. There are lots of good samples out there but you're really better off using VSTis and other plugins to do that. The only exception is drums, which are usually sampled, and you can find those all over the place.
This is one reason I tend to recommend FL or Reason to beginners - they come with tons of samples and presets, which may not be professional-grade, but they are great for getting started. |
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
You're probably right, but I think we're talking about different things here.
I don't recommend against Ableton Live for beginners because it's difficult to use - I recommend against it because the way it's designed (i.e. around live performances) really doesn't get people to think about the way tracks are put together from start to finish. I find it very nonlinear (for lack of a better word) and it's really easy to get caught up in the screwing-around without thinking about the big picture.
It seems like I'm always seeing relatively inexperienced producers getting into Ableton and suddenly thinking they are the . Either that or DJs using it to beatmatch and claiming that they're doing "Live PAs". Not that any of these people don't have the potential to do great things production-wise, but since Ableton does a lot of things *for* you behind the scenes, users seem to be traipsing through "advanced" territory without really understanding the fundamentals or exactly what's going on behind the scenes.
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Interesting view you present. Personlly I think sequencers are and have been difficult to use for all the wrong reasons and for a very long time. Cubase is amazing and I probably only know a fraction of what it can do compared to more experienced producers, but I found the more I knew, the less I was actually producing.
Ableton does present a new way of working no argueing with that. If your more used to a linear process then it might present a challenge in that way of thinking. Infact, the freedom it allows can be like you say, seductive at times and prevent you from sticking with one thing and going with it. Such is the price of creative freedom i guess.
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Let's put it this way - it can be a wonderful tool in the right hands, but powerfully evil in the wrong ones. The ability to do certain things without having to think about them is seductive but ultimately becomes a crutch, and makes it even harder to fill in the learning gaps later on.
It's just my opinion. I don't have anything against Ableton Live, at all. It's great software. I just think it's starting to become a bit of a fad amongst producers and DJs (now that Sasha's doing it, everyone wants to do it), and fads are just plain dangerous. People need to realize that screwing around with loops and samples in Ableton is not a substitute for learning how to produce seriously, but merely complementary to it. |
I cant really see what Cubase makes you do that Ableton doesnt. It has more toolsets and a more complicated workflow, but a host is a host regardless. I do miss the audio routing options, midi editing and more precise mixer in cubase though. Hopefully Ableton will improve in these respects with future releases though. Maybe I've just been away from cubase for so long I've forgotten what its like ;)
Production knowledge goes far beyond the host you use. You screw around with loops, midi and samples in ableton just like you would in any other host. The real knowledge is in composition, programming, mixing and engineering which is the same, regardless of the sequencer really.
I'm pretty sick of the hype too, though mainly from DJ's who feel 'threatened' by it as though its some sort souped up version of traktor. Most dont actually get the fact that its a full blown production suite that just happens to have a background as a live sequencer much the same way that FLStudio was a dinky little loop sequencer at one stage. :rolleyes: |
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| Thois |
| good read, i thought live was the bomb, but now i've learned it has weaknesses too. What about project5 v2? |
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| Project 7 |
| its simple, Cubase sx2 |
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| B-Good |
Got to get my 2 cents in here !
I started using reason, it was good for learning about making music but it really had little transferable skills as far as you using programs. Picked up logic Audio and just pulled my hair out for 10 straight days figuring out how to get started due to driver & system compatibility problems. Picked up a book on logic read the crap out of it and never looked back.
If you are determined to make music you will figure it out.
GO GET LOGIC IF YOU WANT TO BE SMART AND USE A MAC.If you want to use your PC forever get cubase and if you are going to be getting a mac in the near future I would suggest finding a used copy of Logic 5 for the time being.
Now the important part.
Once you get either of these programs get someone who knows what they are doing to show you how to install and set up the drivers etc. This will insure that you are spending your time learning the important part, making music ! |
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| Axolotyl |
| quote: | Originally posted by Thois
good read, i thought live was the bomb, but now i've learned it has weaknesses too. What about project5 v2? |
I'd say every host has its weaknesses, some more than others and in different areas. Havnt used P5v2 although its getting a pretty good wrap from what I've read. Good workflow and a great suite of plugins boxed with it. Seems to be competing head to head with Live/Operator atm as an out of the box solution. I think the big sequencers will be watching the outcome of this fight very closely. |
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| DeZmA |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I find it very nonlinear (for lack of a better word) and it's really easy to get caught up in the screwing-around without thinking about the big picture.
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I don't use ableton live but I think they 've sorted that out. A friend has used 5 bèta and he really likes it. It seems the program is now fully capable of doing studio work.
Anyway I still work with the latest pc version of logic and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'll change to mac when I feel the need to, so far I'm still fine with 5.5.1 |
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| Zombie0915 |
I have another solution for those who dont want to shell out any money or ruin their computers by installing dodgy programs.
Live CD's, stick in in yer cd drive, reboot, wait, then you are presented with an OS that comes pre-tweaked for audio performance and loaded with lotsa sound apps.
My favorite by far is Dyne:Bolic:
http://www.dynebolic.org/
It is made by this rastafarian dude who has a religous commitment to giving media production programs out for free.
"This software is about Digital Resistance ina babylon world which tries to control and market the way we communicate, we share our interests and knowledge."
It is a quite a nice system, if you have several machines in a LAN you can put one cd in each machine and they will cluster their CPU power together which helps alot when sequencing lotsa stuff, allows one to keep producing without having to stop and render wavs.
LiveCD's are really good to carry around with you whenever you find yourself inspired you can just go to any computer nearby and launch the thing to make whatever, even on a computer that hasn't been tweaked for audio yet.
There are other live cd's which I will let you google if you want them
fervent studio to go
64 bit studio
demudi live
various knoppix spinoffs
figuring out how to use the beast is another story, heh |
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| david.michael |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zombie0915
I have another solution for those who dont want to shell out any money or ruin their computers by installing dodgy programs.
Live CD's, stick in in yer cd drive, reboot, wait, then you are presented with an OS that comes pre-tweaked for audio performance and loaded with lotsa sound apps.
My favorite by far is Dyne:Bolic:
http://www.dynebolic.org/
It is made by this rastafarian dude who has a religous commitment to giving media production programs out for free.
"This software is about Digital Resistance ina babylon world which tries to control and market the way we communicate, we share our interests and knowledge."
It is a quite a nice system, if you have several machines in a LAN you can put one cd in each machine and they will cluster their CPU power together which helps alot when sequencing lotsa stuff, allows one to keep producing without having to stop and render wavs.
LiveCD's are really good to carry around with you whenever you find yourself inspired you can just go to any computer nearby and launch the thing to make whatever, even on a computer that hasn't been tweaked for audio yet.
There are other live cd's which I will let you google if you want them
fervent studio to go
64 bit studio
demudi live
various knoppix spinoffs
figuring out how to use the beast is another story, heh |
That's so very cool... how useful is it for creating new productions though? Like for myself who is an "intermediate" FLStudio producer |
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