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CIA runs secret terrorism prisons abroad (pg. 4)
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| DigiNut |
Technically, since these people aren't U.S. citizens or legal immigrants, and Afghanistan and Iraq don't have extradition treaties with the USA, they aren't protected by any constitution and hence don't have any right to a "fair" trial. If the kleptocratic dictators of those countries had bothered to write up constitutions, the terrorists from those countries might have been better protected. ;)
Really though, how would it even be possible to give these people a fair trial? Where are you going to find an impartial judge and jury? Hell, where are you even going to find a lawyer to defend their cases? :stongue: |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Technically, since these people aren't U.S. citizens or legal immigrants, and Afghanistan and Iraq don't have extradition treaties with the USA, they aren't protected by any constitution and hence don't have any right to a "fair" trial. If the kleptocratic dictators of those countries had bothered to write up constitutions, the terrorists from those countries might have been better protected. ;)
Really though, how would it even be possible to give these people a fair trial? Where are you going to find an impartial judge and jury? Hell, where are you even going to find a lawyer to defend their cases? :stongue: |
Actually, there are some US mil lawyers who are trying to defend some of Guantanamo Bay detainees. The main reason why is because it's US mil's rep on the line.
For the life of me I can't find what the source was.
Yes, the terrorists are scum and my preferred method of dealing with them is on the battlefield so that I can send them on one way ticket to Allah or whoever they think is their god, but we become no better than the terrorists if we don't give them the due process. Innocent until proven guilty. |
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| failsafe |
A few comments here.
If you're saying people ACCUSED of terrorism don't deserve a fair trail then where does that stop? Surely a murder suspect shouldn't either, because what's the difference between killing one vs. many. Should a rapist, or pedophile get a trail? Those are certianly awful crimes, so perhaps they'd be best sent to some prision camp in the baltic? What about a theif, that's bad... but is it bad enough to go to thailand to be whipped with a fan belt for 3hrs?
the moral of the story is that you need checks and balances. If someone is CONVICTED of terrorism then yep, send them where ever you want and hook electrodes up to their balls and toroture them for days. No one will care. This isn't new to the americans. I suggest the more ignorat should read up about the american phoenix program during the vietnam war. Unchecked torture, unchecked assassantion squads, I don't imagine what they're trying to run here is much different. Scary thoughts.
The second point I'd like to make is that by doing things like this your adding fuel to the fire. You don't think those pictures from Iraq have been the best propaganda boost to terrorists all around the world? "Here look, this is what americans do to our people".
Lastly this seems so much like treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Why not look out to see why this happened to prevent it from happening again. Why are the americans so hated in the world? What could they do to come across as better citizens of the world? Sure there will always be a segment of the world that will always hate, but you can definately reduce that to a minimum. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by failsafe
The second point I'd like to make is that by doing things like this your adding fuel to the fire. You don't think those pictures from Iraq have been the best propaganda boost to terrorists all around the world? "Here look, this is what americans do to our people". |
Right, because that fire really needed a lot more fuel. :rolleyes: Once again, there have been over 30 terrorist attacks on U.S. landmarks and citizens in the past 10 years, all from the same middle-eastern countries.
Afghanis were cheering the U.S. troops with open arms when they invaded after 9/11. Liberals might like us to believe that recent American efforts in the middle east have inflamed tension, but in reality, there was no uprising on the "Arab street". Private citizens were and still are overjoyed to be able to walk the streets again without having to worry about being raped and killed by cutthroat dictators. The only hatred toward the U.S. comes from those dictators and fat cat European bureaucrats who are looking for someone else to blame for their rising crime rates and crumbling social programs.
| quote: | | Lastly this seems so much like treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Why not look out to see why this happened to prevent it from happening again. Why are the americans so hated in the world? What could they do to come across as better citizens of the world? Sure there will always be a segment of the world that will always hate, but you can definately reduce that to a minimum. |
What you need to understand is that these nations hate the USA because it stands for freedom and democracy. The USA has been the most significant force for good on this planet for hundreds of years - there is nothing they can do, or should do, to appease the radicals and terrorists who hate them for the very essence of what they are and what they represent.
The only disease here is radical Islam, and by getting rid of the terrorists and cutting off their flow of funds, they are treating it in the most effective and painless way possible. |
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| failsafe |
Hundreds of years? Read a history text dude. It wasn't like 1776, and boom they're a world power helping all in need. I forgot was it America or Canada that showed up late to both world wars?
Perhaps you can tell me who's been killing all the americans in Iraq. Because the people had street parties when they came in, it surely can't be them right?
Again, read some history texts. Search out the great parties the french had for the nazi's in paris. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
It is -really- unfortuante that a terrorist who's modus operandi is to kill innocent women and children doesn't get a fair trial... Really unfortunate. |
What if some of them aren't terrorists? What if they were in the wrong place on the wrong time? If these ppl truly are terrorists (which most of them are), I don't see why it would be so hard to give them a trial and then sentence them to life in one of those ty prisons.
While we are at it, why not put everyone supsect for murder in prison too without a trial? I mean no one wants those either! |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigitalMP
I hate to play devil's advocate, if it's not too cliche in this thread, but these terrorists don't even know the definition of a fair trial. |
No they don't know the defintion of a fair trial, however the very thing we are fighting for is the free society. Imo, if we start to use the same bad tactics as they are, then we already half lost.
Just because they are bad it doesn't justify anything bad from our/your side.
| quote: | | Though, please note that is very extreme thinking coming from me, because I don't think that one should compromise the law of their own land for what I just said, but these s are likely going to get freed from Guantanamo in 3-5 if they are taken there, so why not try to get to the top behind closed doors? |
If they are proven terrorists, I'm sure you could get them in for more than 3-5, if not, I guess they don't deserve any more than that.
| quote: | | Again, that's not in accord with my morals and beliefs, but I'm just trying to look through 'their' eyes a bit. |
Why are you trying to look through their eyes? Their eyes would justify so much more which I guess you woulndt agree with, at all! |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Technically, since these people aren't U.S. citizens or legal immigrants, and Afghanistan and Iraq don't have extradition treaties with the USA, they aren't protected by any constitution and hence don't have any right to a "fair" trial. If the kleptocratic dictators of those countries had bothered to write up constitutions, the terrorists from those countries might have been better protected. ;)
Really though, how would it even be possible to give these people a fair trial? Where are you going to find an impartial judge and jury? Hell, where are you even going to find a lawyer to defend their cases? :stongue: |
Imo, I don't care where they are citizens or whos law they are under. What matters is, every human should have the right to a fair trial. To me I couldn't care less about what nationality they have. And obviosly the constitution of the US should be written in a different way, so that everyone treated by US government should fall under those laws. |
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| simms327 |
| quote: | | Yes, the terrorists are scum and my preferred method of dealing with them is on the battlefield so that I can send them on one way ticket to Allah or whoever they think is their god, but we become no better than the terrorists if we don't give them the due process. Innocent until proven guilty. |
agreed |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
What if some of them aren't terrorists? What if they were in the wrong place on the wrong time? If these ppl truly are terrorists (which most of them are), I don't see why it would be so hard to give them a trial and then sentence them to life in one of those ty prisons.
While we are at it, why not put everyone supsect for murder in prison too without a trial? I mean no one wants those either! |
I highly doubt they would just pulling random people off the street.
In fact, I'm willing to guess the ones they've nabbed are well known in the global terrorist community and they've been watching for years...
America (and the world for that matter) have turned the other cheek for way too long and done nothing thanks to a liberal-can't-we-all-get-along attitude. Muddling negotiations with dictators and extremists is over and it's time to pay the piper... |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I highly doubt they would just pulling random people off the street.
In fact, I'm willing to guess the ones they've nabbed are well known in the global terrorist community and they've been watching for years... |
Many of those in Guatemano for example was inocent. Many of them did nothing else than fight for the freedom of their country when the US troops were invading them. I see nothing wrong with that, it should be everyone's right to defend the country. However of course many of them are too guilty of horrible crime, but I don't think that is very hard to prove.
Also, if the world community has been watching this guys for years, then there should be no problems whatsoingever to prove them guilty. So if these ppl are so obviously terrorists (which 99% of them probably are) just have a ing trial and everyone will be happy!!!
| quote: | | America (and the world for that matter) have turned the other cheek for way too long and done nothing thanks to a liberal-can't-we-all-get-along attitude. Muddling negotiations with dictators and extremists is over and it's time to pay the piper... |
We are still doing that. Or what about pakistan or saudi arabia? Just that right now they fit the purpose of what the US is doing, just like Saddam did a while back.
And invading iraq did nothing else than further increase the hate for the US, and by that also making it easier for organizations like Al Queda too recruit new suecide bombers. So much for the conservative-if-you-don't-agree-let's-bomb-each-other.... |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Many of those in Guatemano for example was inocent. Many of them did nothing else than fight for the freedom of their country when the US troops were invading them. I see nothing wrong with that, it should be everyone's right to defend the country. However of course many of them are too guilty of horrible crime, but I don't think that is very hard to prove.
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At least they weren't just killed out-right which I wouldn't expect would have been the case had the tables been turned.
We've already seen quite graphically what they do to their 'prisoners' and hostages.
They should be so lucky.
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Also, if the world community has been watching this guys for years, then there should be no problems whatsoingever to prove them guilty. So if these ppl are so obviously terrorists (which 99% of them probably are) just have a ing trial and everyone will be happy!!!
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I think the real problem isn't proof as much as justication and where to hold them.
For example, Saddam may have been held by the States but is now in trail in Iraq.
Those with a known rap sheet I'm sure are being take of properly by the proper international authorities.
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We are still doing that. Or what about pakistan or saudi arabia? Just that right now they fit the purpose of what the US is doing, just like Saddam did a while back.
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A necessary evil you might say, yes.
In the days of supporting Saddam that was a totally different era where the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
We were fighting a war against Communism in which we did whatever we could to win.
The arguement of cleaning up our own mess is absolutely valid and that's exactly what's happening; that should be no surprise at all.
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And invading iraq did nothing else than further increase the hate for the US, and by that also making it easier for organizations like Al Queda too recruit new suecide bombers. So much for the conservative-if-you-don't-agree-let's-bomb-each-other.... |
I agree with Diginut in his arguement in that it's hard to feed a fire that's already been raging for years and the States knew that full well before they moved one soldier towards that end. |
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