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Please tell me we didn't do that in Iraq (pg. 3)
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
And that makes it different how...? It still is a horrible act if it's true (which it might very well be). |
Just a statement; not a comment.
As above, I wasn't agreeing with it either however I'll state again they must have an a REAL good reason for pulling this out. :mad: |
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| MisterOpus1 |
In case anyone's missed it, the U.S. military has admitted to using white phosphorous as a chemical weapon:
| quote: | "WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/Prev...5/PAGE24-30.pdf |
And more on "shake and bake":
| quote: | Fighting from a distance
After pounding parts of the city for days, many Marines say the recent combat escalated into more than they had planned for, but not more than they could handle.
"It's a war," said Cpl. Nicholas Bogert, 22, of Morris, N.Y.
Bogert is a mortar team leader who directed his men to fire round after round of high explosives and white phosphorus charges into the city Friday and Saturday, never knowing what the targets were or what damage the resulting explosions caused.
"We had all this SASO (security and stabilization operations) training back home," he said. "And then this turns into a real goddamned war."
Just as his team started to eat a breakfast of packaged rations Saturday, Bogert got a fire mission over the radio.
"Stand by!" he yelled, sending Lance Cpls. Jonathan Alexander and Jonathan Millikin scrambling to their feet.
Shake 'n' bake
Joking and rousting each other like boys just seconds before, the men were instantly all business. With fellow Marines between them and their targets, a lot was at stake.
Bogert received coordinates of the target, plotted them on a map and called out the settings for the gun they call "Sarah Lee."
Millikin, 21, from Reno, Nev., and Alexander, 23, from Wetumpka, Ala., quickly made the adjustments. They are good at what they do.
"Gun up!" Millikin yelled when they finished a few seconds later, grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube.
"Fire!" Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it.
The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call "shake 'n' bake" into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week.
They say they have never seen what they've hit, nor did they talk about it as they dusted off their breakfast and continued their hilarious routine of personal insults and name-calling.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/200...0_504_10_04.txt |
And more evidence of its use surfacing:
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The 60mm mortars from Alpha Company, 1-508th Infantry, were tasked to provide immediate indirect fire support onto known and suspected targets. Upon reaching their planned mortar firing point, the section immediately dismounted their HMMWV (high-mobility multipurpose wheeled vehicle) and conducted an emergency occupation. The section immediately received a call for fire from their forward observers. Within 60 seconds of occupation, the section was placing accurate high explosive (HE) and white phosphorus (WP) rounds onto and in the vicinity of the Iraqi observations posts [...]
The Iraqis in one observation post attempted to flee but were fixed with white phosphorus fires. As they attempted to flee again, white phosphorus rounds impacted the vehicle and set it on fire. The section continued to fire a mix of high explosive and white phosphorus rounds into the objective area. The section fired more than 80 rounds in support of the mission. Upon receiving the order to displace and reorganize for the movement back to the battalion assembly area, the 105s, 120s and 60s quickly broke their systems down and moved out. The rifle companies continued to provide suppressive fire onto the objectives.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._93/ai_n6366546 |
White phosphorous used as a chemical weapon is some seriously nasty and deadly :
http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/phsphor.htm
So while it is true that it is technically not a banned substance, it ing should be. Had anyone known what this stuff does as a weapon, they surely would have called for an international ban on it.
Regardless, my first post stands - what moral authority ground do we have to stand on now if we did nothing but lambast Saddam for using chemical weapons to kill thousands of people himself, only to turn around and perform the very same actions on not just insurgents, but innocent civilians and children? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Regardless, my first post stands - what moral authority ground do we have to stand on now... |
None, the US never has. Ofcourse most of us will never accept that and we'll forget all about this, along with all the other vile and attrocious things the state has done to other nations/people (that is, if any of you are aware of standard US coersive tactics). Every generation (with a few exceptions of a few individuals who form a small minority) is oblivious to the attrocities committed by goverment the previous generations lived under (and even their own gorerments) since it's all swept under the rug (EDIT: if it ever makes it to the mainstream meida to being with).
"History is written by the winners."
"Never underestimate the power of denial."
(I forgot who originally said these) |
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| occrider |
I would stop referring to it as a chemical weapon. Despite the fact that there is technically a chemical reaction it's rather disingenious to suggest that it is a chemical weapon when it is actually a conventional weapon. Technically, there is a chemical reaction in every explosive device, yet I would hardly considered a High Explosive artillery shell to be a chemical weapon. Or are disingenious accounts of barrels of Iraqi poisonous "chemical" agents, when they are in fact substances such as rocket fuel, accurate?
This isn't that huge of a deal to me. No more outragous than the air force ing up and dropping a bomb on a wedding party. |
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| Shakka |
| gawd your av is gay. He looks like he's going for a smoochie. |
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| ogvh5150 |
Yes Virginia, they really did use White Phosphorous:
b. White Phosphorous. WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE (high explosives). We fired "shake and bake" missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.
Field Artillery Magazine March-April 2005 Edition page 26 first column bottom left
November 08, 2005
Shake and Bake in Falluja
Posted by Casey Khan at November 8, 2005 02:20 PM
In the article mentioned below, the government is naturally not forthcoming in its justification for its alleged white phosphorus [WP] use on Falluja. While WP is used to mark targets, it is most effective in marking during daylight operations. WP mortar and artillery rounds emit a large cloud of WP smoke which detonate delayed, on impact, or just above the target. WP rounds help forward observers and F18s reference their high explosive rounds [HE] in the day. Illumination of enemy positions at night is best done by a separate type of round known as an illumination round [Illum]. Illum rounds eject a projectile well above the target area emitting a light carried by parachute with what I think is white phosphorus. Illum rounds in and of themselves are pretty harmless to troops, which is why the government wants you to think this is merely what they were doing. WP rounds however are extremely deadly laying waste to anything in its path. Just imagine a substance that easily melts through steel burning through a body. As far as I know it is considered by international laws of war, to be unethical to intentionally drop WP on personnel.
In proving this war crime, one would need access to the radio communication of the mortar and artillery battery fire direction centers [FDC] at Falluja to establish who made the requests for WP and in what capacity. If WP was requested during fire missions as a means to mark targets for HE use, then I think there is no case. If WP was requested as a "fire for effect" [FFE] on a particular area, especially in an urban environment, then a case could be made for a war crime. Establishing FFE would entail that they were using WP as more than a target marking mechanism. The only use for WP during an FFE is against personnel. In fact WP during "fire for effect" is often done in a mix with HE giving the combined effect of explosive shrapnel with the melting of flesh. This is known as "shake and bake" which is considered an international war crime. [Unlike Abu Gharib, establishment of this war crime will mean that officers heads will roll. Call for fire lines are well monitored by officers in the field and what types of rounds used during the operation are well controlled by officers. It will be tough for higher ups to duck out of this one blaming it on Lance Corporal Schmukatelli.]
If you ask me, I don't see much difference between WP and HE as they both kill, mutilate and destroy. There may be a case that the tactical use of "shake and bake" is justified in a truly just war scenario, but only in a just war and never when innocent civilians are in the way. [What if WP were your last rounds available for use in a lawful defense against a communist human body wave.] The ultimate war crime here is the seige of Falluja. The tactical employments merely measure the level of brutality that the crime was committed.
Shake and Bake in Falluja
Back in the 70's and 80's in the US there was a product for seasoning chicken prior to cooking. You inserted your chicken part in a bag with seasoning and shook it until all the seasoning covered the part. Hence the use of the term "shake and bake" for all you non-American military types.
I'd hate to see if they use words like Oreo, M&M or Frosted Flakes. |
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| Epicurus |
http://wilsonhellie.typepad.com/for...palms_iraq.html
White phosphorus and MK77 (an "enhanced" version of the 1942 Napalm original) were both used. Full length video (27 minutes) about 1/4 of the way down. Both are "technically" incendiaries (yes, Napalm also), but if you somehow think that incendiaries are "less harmful" or more acceptable to use than chemical weapons, simply because they haven't been categorized as such, then I suggest you go brush up on your organic chemistry, and then come back and enlighten a chemical engineer about their differences.
And yes, the US hasn't signed on to the treaty banning incendiaries, which means nothing at all. If North Korea had dropped a nuclear bomb on the States a couple of years back after having pulled out from the non-proliferation treaty, would it have been "OK". And please, stop making thinly veiled "comments" under the rubrique of "statement".
Anyway, this is yet another one of those stories that people are going to focus on and beat to death, kind of like the Abu Ghraib story, while completely failing to focus on the grander scheme of things. It just seems as if we're saying that killing innocents in a war that has no justification whatsoever is alright, as long as we don't burn their flesh off and melt them into oblivion. It just seems that trivial things are often focused on, instead of the larger picture. At any rate, I assume if something like this story will make heads roll, then so be it. Maybe that's the best we can hope for. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Epicurus
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+1 |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
I would stop referring to it as a chemical weapon. |
This is not an argument over semantics. It's a weapon that was used on civilians.
An act such as this can not be claimed to be part of "collateral damage."
Lies fueled by bad intelligence to form a baseless war over non-existent weapons of mass destruction unless you look at who had them all along....us.
"you know I'm just back from Iraq and I'm acting a little crazy... in Iraq we can do whatever. You think they put all that on the news? Man ask anybody we rape those bitches over there and we take their men and blow their brains out just like that and nobody ever knows."
US Soldiers in St. Louis Admit to Rape and Murder in Iraq
The tip of the iceberg. Strange how a movie like Jarhead comes out when support for the war is waning. There are few that said there were never any weapons in Iraq to be found and they were chastised for being unpatriotic or even terrorist supporters.
In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot.
Mark Twain
To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.
Abraham Lincoln |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
"you know I'm just back from Iraq and I'm acting a little crazy... in Iraq we can do whatever. You think they put all that on the news? Man ask anybody we rape those bitches over there and we take their men and blow their brains out just like that and nobody ever knows."
US Soldiers in St. Louis Admit to Rape and Murder in Iraq |
:whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
:whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: |
+1
those in redneck Americans there are disgusting. so much for bringing justice and freedom to a country eh?:rolleyes: |
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| ogvh5150 |
ABCNNBCBS and the media including Hollywood glorifies the soldier.
They might as well glorify the SS or the Stalin's Soviet Red Army.
How proud they must be.
Back in the 70's there were cries of "baby killer".
Somehow the echoes in the halls of time are strong again. |
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