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Turkey = Anti Muslim/Religion ? (pg. 2)
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
Well, although this might seem like a very secular thing to do by the Turkish government I think the purpose and effect is quite the opposite.
Right now it's the Islmaic party who has the power in Turkey and from what I gather from my long discussions with my Turkish friends (all whom are attending university) in Ankara they think that this Islamic party is run by a bunch of religious fanatics. They may appear to be very secular but there is a real worry among the students that this might just be a facade.
With this in mind, the ban of headscarves in official buildings are probably more an instrument to keep the women from any position of power, as seen in many islamic countries around middle east. It may also be a cosmetic move towards the EU giving the message that they are tough on Islamic fundamentalists.
I think this is a bad move in a country which such a huge islamic population. Women will not be able to give up wearing the headscarves in order to get access to these public institution, because of either social pressure or their own religious belief.
Not only will women have harder time getting a good education, they are also banned from courthouses where female lawyers are fighting for womens rights. |
That's interesting, didn't think at it like that, at all! Which further proves that a ban on freedom of expression is pretty much always a bad thing. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
Well, although this might seem like a very secular thing to do by the Turkish government I think the purpose and effect is quite the opposite.
Right now it's the Islamic party who has the power in Turkey and from what I gather from my long discussions with my Turkish friends (all whom are attending university) in Ankara they think that this Islamic party is run by a bunch of religious fanatics. They may appear to be very secular but there is a real worry among the students that this might just be a facade.
With this in mind, the ban of headscarves in official buildings are probably more an instrument to keep the women from any position of power, as seen in many islamic countries around middle east. It may also be a cosmetic move towards the EU giving the message that they are tough on Islamic fundamentalists.
I think this is a bad move in a country which such a huge islamic population. Women will not be able to give up wearing the headscarves in order to get access to these public institution, because of either social pressure or their own religious belief.
Not only will women have harder time getting a good education, they are also banned from courthouses where female lawyers are fighting for womens rights.
*edit: those pesky spelling errors* |
I think you've arriveto to a bit wrong conclusion about women here. In modern Turkey the women who wear headscarves are generally old, uneducated, and live in the middle of nowhere. Additionally even they wear them more as a sign of tradition than genuine expressions of their faith, and are therefore likely to obey removing them without much complaining. Young urban women generally dress up normally so this would affect a very small percentage of people who go to universities or have important business positions. I am more inclined to believe in the second thing you mentioned, that it's a move to present the islamic party as not-so-islamic-after-all to the EU members. |
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| Dj_Irish |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
I think you've arriveto to a bit wrong conclusion about women here. In modern Turkey the women who wear headscarves are generally old, uneducated, and live in the middle of nowhere. Additionally even they wear them more as a sign of tradition than genuine expressions of their faith, and are therefore likely to obey removing them without much complaining. Young urban women generally dress up normally so this would affect a very small percentage of people who go to universities or have important business positions. I am more inclined to believe in the second thing you mentioned, that it's a move to present the islamic party as not-so-islamic-after-all to the EU members. |
Thanks for the input. What I know about Turkey is what I've seen myself during my visits and what my selected friends who live there tell me. I've only met young urban people when I have been there since I've only been there as a DJ. Thus my knowledge is very selective and perhaps somewhat sparse. My friends wanted me to know, however, that what I see in Istanbul and Ankara is not necessarily representive of the turkish population as a whole. (I only meet the middle class 20-somehting). Therefor I made the conclusion that the urban life style of the young people found in those cities might not be the norm. Perhaps I took it a bit far. |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
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You're trying to argue something DrugTito by saying " I was only there in two cities and only for a short time and I was never anywhere else but I assume it's not like what you're saying". You realize this?
Croation awefully close to Turkey so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. Case-in-point, Turkey may appear secular and may not really believe in what it's doing but it's happening regardless. Boohoo. |
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| Dj_Irish |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
You're trying to argue something DrugTito by saying " I was only there in two cities and only for a short time and I was never anywhere else but I assume it's not like what you're saying". You realize this?
Croation awefully close to Turkey so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. Case-in-point, Turkey may appear secular and may not really believe in what it's doing but it's happening regardless. Boohoo. |
Please Re-read my post. I'm not arguing against Drug_Tito. I'm actaully agreeing with him and pointing out that my assumptions may be wrong precisely because me contact with Turkey is rather limited. I've been there about 7 times the last 2 years and met many I now consider my friends. My first post was a speculation based on my experience and not something I claim is fact. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
Please Re-read my post. I'm not arguing against Drug_Tito. I'm actaully agreeing with him and pointing out that my assumptions may be wrong precisely because me contact with Turkey is rather limited. I've been there about 7 times the last 2 years and met many I now consider my friends. My first post was a speculation based on my experience and not something I claim is fact. |
Hehe, well, glad I'm considered to be an authority on Turkey, but to be honest I haven't even been there so my views are somewhat of a speculation too :) |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj_Irish
Please Re-read my post. I'm not arguing against Drug_Tito. I'm actaully agreeing with him and pointing out that my assumptions may be wrong precisely because me contact with Turkey is rather limited. I've been there about 7 times the last 2 years and met many I now consider my friends. My first post was a speculation based on my experience and not something I claim is fact. |
my mistake, hehe :p. But regardless, Turkey is certainly attempting to better their relations with the Western World. IDK if doing something about the religious aspect of their lives makes too much sense that's why I think it's something they actually wanted to push forward. IMO, too much drama over this. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lepanto
Turkey is certainly attempting to better their relations with the Western World. |
Like what? |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Like what? |
They're in the UN and NATO and have spent decades to establish a democratic government. How are they not doing anything? Not to mention they are being considered for entering the European Union. |
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| occrider |
Why would anyone want to take lessons from the French? :)
Kidding asides, I still don't understand bans such as these. First of all, does it apply to all religious symbology (christian crosses, yarmalkehs, etc.)? Second of all, why would you want to infringe on an individual's freedom of expression? If a person makes an individual choice to wear a headscarf, how does that affect you as an individual whether that person decides to wear a headscar or not. What if your desire to wear a baseball hat offends someone else? Would you let their sensitivities dictate your lifestyle? |
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| Synthesia |
Just pasting my reply from the post about the French banning the headscarf. I think its a far more interesting debate to focus on the religious significance of the hijab and perhaps therefrom we can understand why this would be banned.
Just copy pasting my reply from the other hijab-banning thread:
Some Muslims say the head-scarf is a symbol of their religion. In that case doesn't it show female opression?
Some Muslims say the head-scarf has nothing to do with their religion. In that case I think I'll wear a head-scarf myself as a fashion item Why would this cause problems then?
Some say that I am intolerant/racist for saying something like the above, why? I'm just merely stating some facts and thinking/acting rationally accordingly. |
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| LazFX |
| Why is the scarf a big deal in this religion?? I really want to know.... any body??? Isn't this scarf ment to hide the identity of the woman that is "forced" to wear this?? Why would the civilized world allow into its society a symbol of opresion?? Here I was sitting across from a Mosque(sp) and I saw all the women covered from head to toe, but the men were wearing nice suits, fancy sunglasses and looked very GQ i might add. Is the scarf kind of like a sign to show the woman and the world that she is to be seen as a second class citizen?? |
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