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moral question for the cor (pg. 2)
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| Silky Johnson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
do you believe in God? According to the bible, God has a plan for us- he knows what we're going to do before we do it, five minutes from now, five years from now. Therefore, we are pre-determined to be a certain way. SO... how can we be morally responsible for our actions, if they are pre-determined for us?? |
Ouch. I'm not even gonna get into my beliefs here. That would defeat the purpose of me spending time in the c0r.
Perhaps one day we'll meet and we can discuss it over coffee. Or tea. Or many beers. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by jennypie
Ouch. I'm not even gonna get into my beliefs here. That would defeat the purpose of me spending time in the c0r.
Perhaps one day we'll meet and we can discuss it over coffee. Or tea. Or many beers. |
many beers, preferably
| quote: | Originally posted by stevieboy32808
You mean peer pressure. I'm sure you're old enough to make your own decisions.
wouldn't you say you are creating the boredom for yourself?
In other words destiny or fate. I don't believe in destiny or fate, but I do believe in God. Kind of oxymoronic if you ask me? |
i sense a heated argument :eyes:
I kinda worded it wrong. I don't mean peer pressure.
Hard determinism is the stance that all of our actions are determined (causally) and we do not have moral responsibility for our actions.
We act necessarily. One's action is the result of the impulse received from the motive, the object, or even the idea which has modified one's brain or will. If you don't act on a particular impulse, it's because there is some new cause, motive or object that affects you in a different manner.
THEREFORE, humanity's actions are never free because they are the result of one's temperament, various received ideas and notions formed, and one's opinions reinforced by example, education, and daily experiences.
FOR EXAMPLE,
suppose I say, "You are not free to raise your hand."
you respond, "Oh yeah? Watch THIS!!" (and raise your hand)
you are NOT free, because the desire to display your apparent free will becomes a necessary motive which determines your actions. |
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| occrider |
| Of course it's wrong. Why don't you simply ask for the money? If you're so dependable about repaying him with interest he shouldn't have any problem with lending you the money. And if he does ... well it's his money so don't force him to treat you like a stranger. |
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| stevieboy32808 |
If your theory was true that our actions are in a never ending cycle of copying people, places, or things that surround us, then we would be stuck in the caveman days. Think about it.
caveman says: Booga!
caveman2 replies: Booga Wooga
If history has taught us anything is that people evolve with time and are not stuck mimicking others. We think for ourselves. Damn there is word for what I'm saying and it's on the tip of my tongue. |
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| stevieboy32808 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
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:wtf: |
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| wienerschnitzel |
| i agree, i would be somewhat pissed if my younger brother jacked some of my money and then paid me back instead of asking... althogh in reality he wouldn't pay me back. But like occrider said, why can't you ask him for it? If he doesn't lend it to you, he's a douche and maybe next time you should just take it from him. |
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| Omega_Blue |
sooooooo... I didn't "create" the boredom per se, it just happened to be a part of my temperament at the moment. The reason I'm bored isn't because of myself, it's because of the outside factors (i have family to do tomorrow, i don't want to get ed up tonight, i have exams, etc). It couldn't have happened any other way. I didn't have the freedom to act that way, because the outside factors prevented me from doing so.
And if i DID go out, it would be because other outside factors (I like to do coke, i wanna be socialable, a couple of beers would be nice, etc) determined me to do so.
The reason i didn't go out is because the first force (responsibility) outweighed the second, less important force (getting ed up).
and as for fate,
I think if you believe in God, you MUST believe in pre-destination. The bible explicitly states that God is all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient... it states that he knew what our actions would be before we did them.
I'm not trying to bash your beliefs, I myself was raised in a strict christian household... but right now i'm kind of a fence-sitter... agnostic if you must. |
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| stevieboy32808 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
I'm not trying to bash your beliefs, I myself was raised in a strict christian household... but right now i'm kind of a fence-sitter... agnostic if you must. |
Believe me I'm not hurt. I love these type of topics and I hope I didn't cause any confusion. Just stick with what you've studied and hope for the best on your test. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by stevieboy32808
If your theory was true that our actions are in a never ending cycle of copying people, places, or things that surround us, then we would be stuck in the caveman days. Think about it.
caveman says: Booga!
caveman2 replies: Booga Wooga
If history has taught us anything is that people evolve with time and are not stuck mimicking others. We think for ourselves. Damn there is word for what I'm saying and it's on the tip of my tongue. |
it's not my theory. it's one that i certainly enjoy, though :p
Saying we aren't free does not mean that we are moved by simple forces in a simple manner.
our very existence carries with it internal causes.
our brains motivate us based on unknown biological forces.
our minds are shaped by our perceptions of the external world.
we are ignorant of the forces that shape and determine our wills.
we are ignorant of why we act the way we do.
btw, I learned all of this from my professor, Mr (or Dr, i can't remember) Stephen Schmid.
http://www.seschmid.org/ |
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| Silky Johnson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
many beers, preferably
i sense a heated argument :eyes:
I kinda worded it wrong. I don't mean peer pressure.
Hard determinism is the stance that all of our actions are determined (causally) and we do not have moral responsibility for our actions.
We act necessarily. One's action is the result of the impulse received from the motive, the object, or even the idea which has modified one's brain or will. If you don't act on a particular impulse, it's because there is some new cause, motive or object that affects you in a different manner.
THEREFORE, humanity's actions are never free because they are the result of one's temperament, various received ideas and notions formed, and one's opinions reinforced by example, education, and daily experiences.
FOR EXAMPLE,
suppose I say, "You are not free to raise your hand."
you respond, "Oh yeah? Watch THIS!!" (and raise your hand)
you are NOT free, because the desire to display your apparent free will becomes a necessary motive which determines your actions. |
This is just what you're being taught, right? I'm not arguing it's validity...I just want to clarify whether you're reiterating things you learned or sharing your own personal views.
edit: nevermind, question answered! |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
well,
a utilitarian would say that you should do whatever creates the most happiness... so.... taking the money and paying him back would make both parties happy... DO IT.
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I'm afraid your utilitarian argument is flawed. You're making several assumptions. First, you're assuming that you know BTG's brother's utility. If a close friend/sibling stole $5 from me without telling me I would be offended even if they paid $10 back some time in the future. You know ... that whole jazz about principles/honesty/etc. Second of all, you're assuming that BTG's brother's ill will has no effect on BTG's utility. Despite the fact that BTG may feel like he is justified in paying more to compensate for his transgressions, he still might suffer negative utility as a result of the effect of his actions on his brother.
As for "hard determinism" in the manner you describe it, that's such an intangible argument that it has almost no meaning. Regardless of how rich I am, it is quite likely that someone is always richer than I am. Does that "determine" that I will rob someone despite the fact that I am a billionaire? Is it "necessity" that I rob and steal until I become the richest person in the world? This philosophy can perpetuate ad nauseum in any situation. |
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| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by stevieboy32808
Believe me I'm not hurt. I love these type of topics and I hope I didn't cause any confusion. Just stick with what you've studied and hope for the best on your test. |
I'm glad this didn't get ugly. A lot of times when I have little chats about religion or philosophy, I say something that a lot of people don't agree with and they get really personal and aggravated... I'm just spouting out what i've learned so far :D
jen- things i've learned, for sure. but it's definitely an argument that i hold a lot of interest in... like i said, if you're a hard determinist, you can pretty much do anything you want and say, "the environment made me do it!" too bad it wouldn't hold up in court |
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